Page 10 | Healing From Emotional Abuse

Episodes

Wednesday Aug 26, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: MST Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Melissa King

Wednesday Aug 26, 2020

Wednesday Aug 19, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Healing From Pain: with Dr. Heidi Cooke

Wednesday Aug 19, 2020

Wednesday Aug 12, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Toxic Leadership Part 2: The Brandon Act: with Patrick and Teri Caserta

Wednesday Aug 12, 2020

Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...

Trigger Warning... Suicide
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: On Monday, we heard the horrific story from Teri and Patrick Caserta about the awful treatment their son Brandon Caserta went through while in the Navy. He was harassed, hazed, abused, and forced to work in a toxic environment with a known abuser. He was surrounded by toxic leadership and felt trapped, like his only way out was suicide. I can't begin to imagine what his parents are going through. Let's tune back into the conversation and see what the next steps are in Teri and Patrick's plan to bring justice for Brandon.
I want to hear about The Brandon Act. Tell me what it is, what it's doing, and how you're going about getting it into law.

Patrick Caserta: Well, The Brandon Act, it was developed to be a safe word for military, so they can utilize it, and have some privacy to their issues. So, an example would be. Somebody on a Tuesday morning went to work, and they were feeling depressed, they could just tell the lowest supervisor, they could tell them, “I have a Brandon Act issue. I invoke the Brandon Act,” and that person has to say okay. And the person that invokes The Brandon Act gets to go, I'm just going to say for simplicity, to medical. They go to medical, triage, or in this case, obviously, the mental health. They go to mental health, they'll see a counselor or a psychologist. And a plan will be put into motion, whatever their problem is. It could be marriage problem, relationship problem, could be bullying, hazing. Could be sexual harassment, MST, Military Sexual Trauma, it could be anything. And they'll get triaged to where they need to go, and get the help. It's to ensure that no one feels left alone, left out, and that they have nobody to talk to. Because I know the public believes that the military is like the fire department. It is not like the fire department. The camaraderie and looking out for each other and all that does not exist. Everybody's out for themselves, sort of, or don't have time. With The Brandon Act, they can't say, “We’ll go later.” “Could you go tomorrow?” “Could you go next week?” “We're busy.” “We have too much work." No. They get to go right then and there. They're gone. Just like that. Command cannot retaliate. They can't do anything. They go get the help they need. They might need three or four sessions with counselor or psychologist, and they might actually get healed, and they'll be fine. And while they're having somebody to talk to, they are introduced to the world of counseling and mental health. And understand that it's not what everybody tries to paint it to be. Like a big bad dragon, that’s going to ruin your career. Or if you end up on medication or something, your career is over. It teaches them that there’s actually a useful tool to be able to talk to someone. And it's teaching them that they can go do this, and get the help that they need when they need it. And it also prevents even the command. If somebody sat down from the command and talked to them for two hours, they're really not qualified to talk to them for a couple hours about their problem, if you really think about it. Just because they’re a supervisor doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. And then the question is, do they really care? Are they really going to put effort? Where if they go to outside source on the base, they're going to get proper help, and those people are going to care and want to help them, and listen to their problems no matter what it is. And it can remain confidential. When you're a veteran through the VA, the Vet Center gives you this… the VA will pay for any help you need, counseling, whatever you need. It's there for the rest of your life. So, it teaches them to go get help when you need it. Whether you're in or out. Veteran or not, it doesn't matter. You can get that help. And not to be afraid because 25 veterans a day are dying by suicide, also. Getting them to the door — Proactive system like the Brandon Act. That's what we need. Because he said the success rate is like 99.9% if you get them in the door. We need to get them to the door. If you're sexually assaulted, you need to go to the police. You don't have to go to your command. You do not have to go to your command. But if you believe that, then The Brandon Act is going to be a great tool for you because that enables you, if you're sexually assaulted or harassed, you go to medical and again you triage where you need to go. The police will get involved. It'll be documented and now taken out of the commands hands. Which means they can't cover it up. They can't retaliate against you, and chances are, that you will get justice.

Marissa: I think that's an awesome idea and I hope that included in it is some form of confidentiality. Built in. Just like when you report a sexual assault in the military, if you don't go to a SARC or victim advocate, it automatically gets escalated. And I would hate for that to be a pitfall of The Brandon Act. But that's a great idea and that sounds like a phenomenal tool for people to use. So, thank you guys for creating that. How can we support you to make sure that, that is a utilized tool?

Caserta: Getting it passed. Senator McSally is leading the way right now. She introduced it as a stand-alone bill, and she's trying to get it attached to the Senate's version of the NDAA. It is attached to the house version, and it has already passed. But now they go to committee and they figure out the best of both of their NDAA’s and figure out the best one, and that's the one that they use for the military. It's hoped that the Brandon Act will stay with it. She's trying to get added to the Senate version that way and betters its chances. But she is introducing it as a stand-alone also, which means awareness of it. We're calling Senators right now and making them aware of it. That way when it comes up and they're voting on it, they know what they're voting on. And can make a good decision on if they support it or not. Now the uniqueness of the Brandon Act… there are other Acts out there for sexual harassment. There's several, actually. The Brandon Act does not conflict with any of them. So, the Brandon Act can pass along with them. Well, obviously, you know about the Guillen one, IAmVanessaGuillen, with the independent investigation and things like that. That's great. We support it. We think it's fantastic. But the Brandon Act complements it. Well, it's just another tool. These are tools that they can use. All of them need to pass. But The Brandon Act in particular. Make the senators aware. That's what's going to get it passed. Awareness.

Teri Caserta: And your listeners, you and your listeners if they want to, they can call their congressmen and women and senators to let them know that they are interested, and want the Brandon Act passed. I believe the more people that contact their congressional representatives, the better chances of them knowing about it. And they want this passed.

Patrick Caserta: We've been contacted recently several times already asking if it's in effect. There's people in need, and we've helped people. We help them, you know, it's not passed. We do help them, and give them information on how to get help. But The Brandon Act definitely would make things easier for them. And I think they’d feel more comfortable with doing it. And that's why they're asking us if it's passed yet. Now we have two quests going on. We have the save lives quest. Brandon's legacy is to save lives. We've committed ourselves the rest of our lives to doing that for service members, or anyone, but in particular service members and veterans. The other path is justice for Brandon. We need all the help we can get because it is not looking the way it should. Although there are some things that are changing, and some attention that we're getting that is going to cause some things to happen, we believe. But again, it's hopeful thinking, and we have the evidence and the facts, we just need the military to want to see the evidence and facts and use it against the people. But until then, we're stuck on that justice path. But the other path is doing very well. And what's important is it's going to save lives. And the sooner it gets passed, the sooner we start saving lives. We're going to monitor the numbers, the suicide numbers, the sexual harassment, MST. We're going to monitor and see if it does get passed. And if the numbers go down. If they go up, obviously, there's more work that needs to be done. We need to amend it or many other things to get some other stuff put in place to bring these numbers down.

Marissa: Here's what I want. First and foremost, absolute call to action to all of my listeners to call your senators and representatives and tell them that you want The Brandon Act passed, because there's literally no reason for it not to. One suicide one veteran suicide per year is one too many. And the fact that the numbers are inflating now, so they have to reduce the qualifications. And I can get into that in a different episode, but it's disgusting. So, the second thing I want to say is that Teri and Patrick, I'm going to put you guys in touch with my friend Dennis Addesso, who is the president of a non-profit out of New Jersey, called Ma Deuce Deuce. And they work to help survivors of attempted military suicide or families of veteran suicide. And I think that this is something that they'd be really interested in and they have a ton of connections. Thank you, guys, so much for being here today. You are inspirational social justice fighters. I'm just so inspired by you guys. And I hate your son's story. I'm so sorry about it. But you guys truly are creating a legacy and you will get justice. The last question I have is, what advice would you guys give to parents of military to help them make a safe situation for their children who are serving,

Patrick Caserta: One thing you need to do is listen to your children, like you always do. But the point is, you need to keep your guard up when they're in the military. I mean, like 100 times more than you ever did before. You think they're in good hands. Like I said, we trusted Brandon’s command. The public trusts the military was in good hands. You can't think that way. We've had a lot of parents; we've saved a lot of lives already. They called us concerned about their children. And some of them were suicidal. Some of them were on the verge of it. Some parents were just worried they were suicidal. In the over worry about that. And to get them help, and talk to them, and make them open up to you. And find out, we had a phenomenal relationship with our son. We were the three musketeers. He was an only child, and we did everything together. He put up with 1000 times worse than I could ever tell you. That's what we didn't know. Had we known that things would have turned out differently. So, you need to keep your guard up. Keep in touch, even if you text every day with your children. Obviously, if they're in the war zone or something, you might not be able to do that. But as much as you can talk to them. Don't ever think that they're old enough to be on their own. Brandon don’t get me wrong. He was a young man, and he was more than capable of being on his own, and he was on his own. But he lost his true infrastructure of friends. But more importantly, he was putting an environment of people that he felt didn’t like him. And that's not a good feeling. And we all know that. But it reminds me of high school. And the poor kid was put in that environment. And ultimately, even the people that did like him turned on him. So, he had people to talk to. He had some good friends here. He had us. He had his uncles, aunts, his grandmother. There were a lot of people Brandon could have talked to if he needed to. Why he chose not to, I don't know. I think he thought he had it over-control. And I think they just broke him at the last possible second. Be open-minded where your children. Listen to them. Talk to them. Reassure them. And if you're overdoing it, they tell you over doing it, just let it go in one ear and out the other. Be like the teenagers. In one ear out the other. Keep doing it. Don't stop until they get through the main crowd in the military. You still do it to the end. I just caution you, if you're on a quest for justice, or something like that, there's not much out there for you. We'll guide you and help you in any way we can. We have resources and we belong to groups that can help you the best that they can. There's not a lot out there and that needs to change too. But unfortunately, that's going to take time and it's not going to bring back our kids. So, preventing it like The Brandon Act can, and other things can, and you can. Be proactive. That's the best thing you could do, because your doorbell could be next. I'm sorry, I hate to break the news to you. But right now, somebody's doorbell rang several times. Several doorbells rang while we were doing this, being told their son or daughter or loved one is dead.

Marissa: Thank you so much for all that I think that there was a lot of very helpful insight. Is there anything else that you want to share?

Teri Caserta: The only reason AE1 Jared Brose left the command is because he was overheard making derogatory statements about Brandon and his death two days after Brandon died. And the command opted not to take him to captain's mast, because that would keep him in the command longer. So, they just gave him, I'll say a bad evaluation, and sent him to the wing with the admiral, which would have been Commodore, Alan M. Worthy – Commander Atlantic Helicopter Combat Wing. But that is the only reason he was taken off of HSC 28. Otherwise, he'd still be there. And we also found out that he's doing the exact same thing, because now he's in another command and bragging about how he drove one of his sailors to suicide.
Patrick Caserta: AE1 Jared Brose got fired from that deployment, and that guy was having a hard time when AE1 Jared Brose was there. AE1 Jared Brose left, and this guy rise to the top. He's still in the Navy. He has a career. He's making a career out of it. He turned the corner back to the way he was before AE1 Jared Brose was over him. And had Brandon been away from AE1 Jared Brose, I mean, they knew bros was abusing Brandon and they did nothing about it.
Teri Caserta: Yeah, the only thing AE1 Jared Brose got after he was removed from that deployment was, we were told, one anger management class. That's it. And we are not the only family who's trying to fight for justice. I'm in so many groups and there are 1000s upon 1000s of families trying to get justice for their loved ones, because of either the negligence, the bullying, the hazing, the sexual harassment MST, that their loved one had endured. We are not the only family out there. We just don't want anybody else to go through what Brandon did, and we don't want any other family to go through what we have. Those people that killed our son, we would not wish this on them. That is the worst pain ever.

Marissa: Thank you guys so much for sharing everything you shared. And I'm so grateful that you guys are empowered to be making this change. It's huge. And you're right, I mean, nothing's going to change until the people who did this to Brandon and to probably 1000s of other service members are held accountable. I'm on board. I'm all in to do whatever I can to help. Thank you, guys, so much for dedicating your life and Brandon's legacy to keeping other service members safe. Thank you, guys, so much for being here today.

Casertas: Thank you, we appreciate it.

“The people shown below are an embarrassment and a disgrace to the Navy, our great country and to society as a whole. As parents of a truly wonderful young man, we demand those responsible be held accountable for Brandon’s death. Since there is not a statute of limitations on murder, it’s not too late to file charges.”
Commodore, Alan M. Worthy – Commander Atlantic Helicopter Combat WingCommander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28)Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28)Command Master Chief, David TokarskiMaster Chief Pete LeretteChief Doug DelasanroChief Shelah HennardNC1 Remmy SpenceAE1 Jared Brose

Marissa: Everybody's story is a little bit different. Nobody has gone through exactly what you have. And although that can make us feel alone, know that by speaking out, you're inspiring others do the same. writing a book is what gave me my start on this journey. I decided that even though I didn't feel that my story was as awful as what others experienced. If I could help one other person process and heal from what they experienced. It was worth telling. And it did. I received a ton of support and private messages from people who felt inspired and empowered by me speaking my truth. If you have a story that you want to share, I would love to help you start this journey. The people who have endured sexual assault and domestic violence all have the same notion. They just don't want anyone else to feel the way they did. We want to support everyone. Do yourself and our community service and consider writing your story or contributing it to my breaking through the silence series your words and your voice are powerful and your story can help others heal from their abuse. If you're interested, please send me an email to me at MarissaFayecohen.com and I would be thrilled to work with you on breaking your silence. Thank you so much.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!

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Monday Aug 10, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Toxic Leadership: The Brandon Act: with Patrick and Teri Caserta

Monday Aug 10, 2020

Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...

Trigger Warning... Suicide
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.

Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. In the nature of Military MeToo and IAmVanessaGuillen, I've been talking to a lot of MST survivor, MST survivors, service members who are survivors of MST, domestic violence or military sexual trauma. And Sexual Assault Response coordinators who have worked with the military and been retaliated against for doing their job and defending MST survivors. What we haven't talked about here is how that impacts the family of service members who are affected by MST military sexual trauma. So today, I'm super honored to bring on two of my coalition members and friends. I'm so excited. Teri and Patrick Caserta. Patrick is a 22-year retired Navy counsellor, Senior Chief, and Terry, his wife claims to just be an administrative assistant. But I think she's a thought leader and a powerhouse advocate for survivors. And they together are the authors of The Brand Act. And they're dedicated to carry out their son Brandon's legacy of saving the lives of our service members. Hey, guys, Welcome on Breaking through Our Silence. I'm so happy to have you today.

Teri Caserta: Well, thank you for having us today. We're excited as well.

Marissa: I'm sorry for the nature of the conversation. I wish it was something happier. But I'm so inspired by you guys and your bravery. And you're speaking out for what happened to your family. So, would you guys mind be telling us your story?

Patrick Caserta: Well, first of all, our son Brandon, he was since he was four years old, he was in swimming and he maintained swimming till the day he left for active duty. And he was in karate also since he was four. And a played many sports over the years. In modern times, We didn't know this, but sports are year-round. He was a sport year-round not just in high school, but before High School. And we coached a lot of his teams over the years. And it was mainly football, flag football, football, he played some baseball but mainly football. And we were able to save up enough money for him to go to college. His college was paid for. Meaning it was already we can afford this. And we already have money set aside for it. And we did not want him joining the military at all. The thought was I had already served, and he we wanted him to, because he had the opportunity a lot of people do not, go to college. So, one day out of nowhere, he hit us with a surprise, that he wanted to join the military and become a Navy Seal. And we were shocked. And I was against it. But I knew that this was something he really wanted to do. He had a plan, and supporting him on it was the right thing to do. And ultimately, he could join anyway on his own later. So, the point was, it was better to support his decision and be proud of what he wants to do, than to go against it. So, we supported him. We got him everything he needed. He worked, boy did that kid work out. And he was already in shape. But he we took them the swimming all the time, which was about five miles away. He'd wake up early in the morning and ride his bike and he wrote up and back and 120 degrees sometimes. And he’d come home and he'd be completely soaked in sweat. And but the bike ride was you know, good for physical fitness and as he called it, SEAL training. Ultimately went in and he was in Seal training. He made it to week three, unfortunately, he broke his leg and he actually collapsed on the beach. They throw him in the back of a pickup truck. They should have taken him to medical. They did not. Since we're in Arizona, he called us and we went out there immediately. And I could have gotten him back into seals based upon the fact that he had a broken leg. He told me word for word, "Dad, you can do that. And I know you'd get me back in. But they'll never let me make it through. They'll never let me make it through.” So, he would know more than I would because he was in the training so I backed away and honored his request. Unfortunately, when you don't make it through the seals, you're at the mercy of the Navy. And the Navy gave him three or four jobs to pick from. And he picked the best one of the bunch that was there. And they shipped them away with a broken leg to Pensacola. He went to school. He got orders to Norfolk, Virginia, HSC 28. He checked in. He went to advanced school there for a couple months. And then ultimately checked into the command permanently. And I kid you not they had him selling candy. And I'm not lying or exaggerating. Yes, candy. And yes, this is waste, fraud and abuse, it is best. So, I just want the taxpayers to know, and I am pursuing this and have been. But he decided, because of the toxic and abusive leadership in the command, and he was being abused and wanted out of there. So, he applied for an air-crewman program. He was accepted to it. He had orders leaving February 2018. But in October-November time-frame, he fell off his bike, he fell to the ground, broke his collarbone. So, he was going to rehab, and weren't sure when he was going to be found, as the military calls it, “Fit for duty.” So, the command on their own, took it upon themselves to cancel his orders, even though, like I pointed out, he went to Pensacola, Florida with a broken leg. You could ship him somewhere with a broken collarbone, especially when it would be basically healed by the middle of February anyway, when his orders were to be executed. But the command cancelled orders without his permission. And the deal was, the counsellor of the command said that once you are found fit for duty, he'll have you out here within two weeks. So, Brandon moved along. On March 28 He was found fit for duty. He went to the NC and said, “Hey, I'm found fit for duty. Here's the paperwork.” The NC said, "Okay, I got it, I'll take care of it.” And Brandon kept bugging the guy and nothing, nothing. Nothing. Brandon said, “Well, I'm supposed to be out here in two weeks.” He goes, “Oh, I never said that.” And mysteriously, he had to do all the paperwork over again. And apply again for air-crewman. Supposedly. He was in the process of doing that, this is a time consuming thing takes couple months. So, he was doing it. And all along, I want to point out that he was being abused by an LPO by the name of Jared Brose. And this Brose guy was heading on deployment for six months. And he was so abusive that they turned him in. And he got fired and kicked off deployment. And he went back to the command. And they gave him a job being in charge of ultimately, he was in charge of Brandon. He was in charge of others, but Brandon was under him. Again. And he continued to abuse Brandon in front of everybody and nobody cared. An example is, we sent a package for Christmas to him. And this guy gets the mail. And at the morning quarters, he has a package for him, walks up in the middle of the room and drops it on the floor, and says here's your package. That's the kind of person he was. He did this in front of everybody. This guy didn't care. He did whatever he wanted to, and the commander knew it. But he fit in with the command. He fit right into their toxic abuse of leadership and abuse of power. So, they favored the guy. That's why they put him back in charge. Anyway, this guy continued to abuse him, and ultimately, they made him write down on a piece of paper his name, social security number, date of birth, address, and they took it from him and didn't tell him what it was for. Half hour later they called him into a room. There were seven people in this room. And there was this Chief on a computer by the name of Chief Doug Delasanro and AE1 Jared Brose was in the room too. And so was his Chief Shelah Hennard. It was seven total. And they are on a computer looking up his driver's license, on the Arizona DMV website, looking up his driver's license, they couldn't find one. They asked if he'd moved. He said yes, because Brandon is totally honest. Added in the new address, and poof, up pops information. It's not necessarily a driver's license, either. It could have been an ID. They didn't know. Brandon took out his wallet and they grabbed it out of his hand. Took his wallet, grabbed his credit card, paid for duplicate license and in Arizona, change of address is free. You don't have to buy a duplicate license and changed his address, and had the license sent to him personally. When I say to him, I'm talking about Chief Doug Delasanro. And then basically looked at and started laughing so it looks like you do have a driver's license. And basically told him to leave. So, he did. He texted us, and called us, and we knew about it. And this AE1 Jared Brose guy was trying to press charges against Brandon because they wanted him to drive, and he didn’t have a drivers license. Somehow, some way, I do not know how they felt they were entitled to his driver's license. I couldn't tell you how people would ever think that way but again, toxic abuse of leadership and abuse of power. They do whatever they want to do. They always have, always will. That'll never change. This Brose guy was picking on him like crazy. So, this set the stage for Brandon, being in a corner. Now I spoke to him. He was very upset. We had no idea, obviously that he wouldn't be suicidal at all. I thought for a minute we were coming out there anyway, because his command would not listen to reason. So, I was coming out there, but the plan was I was calling Monday morning. Monday morning, I called the command and I was on the phone with the senior enlisted advisor by the name of Command Master Chief, David Tokarski. And this guy is going round and round on me about this driver's license thing. And I'm like, we could argue all day, you're not entitled to the license. He just did not understand that. I mean, this guy literally without exaggerating the IQ of a hockey puck. And he wouldn't listen to me. And I argued, argued, argued, and all he kept saying is he's claustrophobic and if he goes to medical and claims to be claustrophobic, all this goes away. I'm like, No, he's not doing that. Because then he can't go air crewmen. He can't even be in the Navy. He's claustrophobic. And I said, He's not claustrophobic. He doesn't drive. What part of that don't you understand? Well, he argues with me. He said he had to go. So, he left. When he got off the phone. He said, I'll call you back right away 30 minutes later, he does call back. In that 30 minutes for a called me, apparently, he went and found Brandon, it was just screaming at him in front of everybody. And degrading him and calling him all this sand. Your daddy can call as much as he wants, he can't help you. We're going to burn you. We're going to, send you to mast, kick you out of the Navy ,and all that. Next thing I know, he calls us back. Like I said, I'm on the phone with him. He's going round and round his driver's license again, even though there's nothing else to talk about. So, I got off the phone with him. Teri was looking for plane tickets. We were coming out there. I was furious. I was going to go out there. And I told Brandon to let the command know we're going to legal. Run and see the EEOC, and that we're going to get an attorney if necessary. And then I'm going to talk to the commanding officer and we'll take it from there. And next thing I know, we're texting with Brandon. Teri gets a text. “Just know I love you." And that was it.
We lost touch. Were trying to get a hold of them kept trying to get a hold of him. And next thing we know two uniformed people are at our door. And obviously, we knew why they were there. And we still hoped for the best, and that he was alive. And unfortunately, he wasn't. And they told us he was dead. Obviously, he died when I was on the phone with the command the second time. But of course, command will never tell us that. I mean, they follow protocol. Just ask them they're so honest. And what had happened is, he went out, I guess during Flight Ops, they let him through the flight line when the Helo was going, they should have never let him through. They're going to say their excuse is, “he was one of us.” That's fine. He's one of you. When two rotors are going nobody is allowed in and out of there. Period. Unless it's the flight crew. And Brandon was not the flight crew. And nobody is allowed in the area. Somehow, they breached. He said something to what they call the Plane Captain — who's in charge of the ground crew, and he said I'm sorry for you about the Helo. He ran at a tail rotor to Helo. He jumped up. Missed. So, he jumped again. He succeeded. They watched. They did nothing. They didn't tackle him. They didn't try to do anything to stop him. And then, here's the great part. Afterwards. So, this happens, you know what they all do, there's about 9 to 10 of them, they all run. They don't have them. They don't do no first aid, nothing, they all run away. Now one will say human beings are human, they may do something like that. This is various ranks of people who've done this stuff 1000s of times that know better. And they've seen things. I've seen things; you respond to it. Not everybody responds the same. But how do nine people run away? And Brandon for almost the whole time he was there kept telling us everybody hates him. And we did not believe that to be a blanket statement. But in the end, we have found people that lied to him and appears they did. But we think that there's a lot of truth to that. That explains their actions. But anyway, no first aid is applied. Nothing. That poor kid sat on that tarmac in the hot sun for six hours. They left him there. He went from there to the morgue. He never went to the hospital. They never took him to hospital and this is all on film. We don't have the film. We've never seen it. And of course, the military said there was a film and then they conveniently have said there isn’t. Even though there is. And ironically, the lovely excuse to be here on every time you ask for clip that some of the cameras were broken. And it's just a standard answer by the military. I mean, they buy cameras that costs 100 times more money than ours, and they're very reliable. And yet they're always broken when something happens. It's kind of a standard answer for them. Anyway, that in a nutshell, is the story of Brandon. To that point, now, turns out he was abused a lot worse than we ever thought. This kid never did anything, anybody. He helped people. Before he went to military used to bring home homeless people, he’d help special needs people. He helped everybody. And whether you liked him or not, he helped you. If you hated him, and he knew you hated him, he still helped you. So that's part one of it. This is all factual information. There is no exaggerating anything. The commanding officer Commander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28), and the executive officer Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28). Those two individuals did nothing to help the kid at all. And they knew and condoned toxic leadership. They were part of the problem.

Now phase two starts on the reason I point this out is, there are those out there, they're going to say, he took his own life, he had a choice. He didn't have to do what he did and all that. I know what people say. Well, Brandon felt trapped his letter he left behind, it tells you this. And it also points out that we're not at fault. Not to, we take responsibility, believe me, we do. And we will take responsibility till the day we die. However, he points out, this is the Navy's fault and the commands fault. He points that out in the letter. It also gets better. They were keeping him for personal greed and keeping him from a program that the Navy needed people for, and he was supposed to leave.
Teri Caserta: Well, because it was 180 days is when they're supposed to be able to complete it. They wanted him to complete it in two weeks.

Patrick Caserta: And that explains why that flight line let him in when the Helo's were going. Those people got qualified quickly too. Some of them. And obviously the commanding officer didn't properly train his crew. Anyway, moving forward, Here's Part Two. He felt trapped. He felt he had no choice. He took his own life. He sent a message to command like, look what you made me do. And he left some letters for some others. And he felt those people would help us get justice for him. Unfortunately, they all turned their back on us too. He left them 10-page letters. He left us a five-page letter. So, you tell me they put in their statements that they don't know him that well. And they don't know why he left them letter. Well, when we got Brandon's phone, we went to the text. Oh, yeah, they were really good friends. Those people lied. And they're covering up this. And that's the part two I'm going to point to. If you believe Brandon took his own life on his own, and you believe it's a choice, and you have no empathy for the story, and the abuse of power, and how they treated him on that, well follow me on this.

So, the Chief’s come in fresh uniform tell us our son's dead. They're here for a little bit and we're talking to them and tell them the story and they're listening. And then after a while, they broke down and started talking to us. And it was strange that they were even bringing the subject matter up. But turns out that on their way over when they were coming to tell us that Brandon was dead, they had done an internet search. And they found an article that said someone died at Norfolk, Virginia, and it was the safety mishap and that…
Teri Caserta: They were supposed to come tell us that he was alive and in the hospital. That is why they were coming to our house.

Patrick Caserta: Well, they pulled over and they called the command and he said, “Look, you know, this article says he's dead. You told us he's alive and in the hospital. I got to tell the parents. What's going on?" So, the command proceeded to tell them well tell the parents he's alive in the hospital. And he's like, Is he alive in hospital? They're like, No, he's dead. He's on the flight line laying there. And he's like, well, I can't tell them that he's alive in the hospital if he's dead. I can't do that. And these guys didn't work for the commanding officer. So, they said they're not going to do it. So, it all starts right there. There's where phase two begins with this lovely Helicopter Squadron 28 commanding officer. So they lied there. Then they proceed to treat us horribly. They hold a memorial service. They don't invite us. They didn't get our permission to hold one although ultimately, I realized they wouldn't need our permission. But you understand my point. The Navy is required, and I did not know this. I wish I didn't because I found out because Brandon's dead, is they fly your immediate family out there to the memorial service. They pay for everything. And the two people dressed in uniform that came to our door, are the ones that are supposed to set that up for us, and pay for it. Of course, that was never done. And the reason that was never done is, we weren't invited. And we didn't even know there was going to be memorial service held. On that subject, there's an article out there where the command responds and says, we were invited. They lied in the article, we were not invited. That's factual. The two people come into the door, make the travel arrangements. They arranged for us to be there. If they didn't make the arrangements, then how in the world could we've been invited? And then we found emails that we got through a FOYA of them going back and forth, saying we were concerned about getting his body back and waiting for it. Well, turns out, there's truth to that. However, we could have gone out there. No family even arrived til the weekend. He died on a Monday. No one even came into picture until the weekend. We could have easily gone to the memorial service. And as far as the body goes, somehow, some way his body was delayed for two weeks. The command got involved, and somehow they got the body delayed. People die in the war and get home faster than our son did. The command interfered with the body coming home. Now why did they do this? And why not invite us to memorial service, You're wondering? Sounds kind of stupid. Well, they did not want us there because they knew I was retired Navy. They knew that we would talk and ask questions to the people in the command. And they did not want us talking to them. They delayed the body because they didn't want us coming out there. Because had we come out their Rest assured, we planed on going to the media. And they knew this and they did not want that to happen. They did not want word to get out over what they had done. Ultimately, NCIS is investigating. And they're investigating whether the medical examiner's report in the cause of death match. When they were investigating, I gave them all kinds of information. Instead of investigating it, they just asked the command nonchalantly some questions. Like we were looking for his driver's license — the one that was sent to Chief Doug Delasanro that stole his credit card, and other things. Well, NCIS knew the command was corrupt. But the command was being nice to them and coaching them on. You know, saying, “Hey, we're innocent." Saying, “You know, this guy did this on his own. We're nice people.” And so NCIS bought it. They should have turned it into a criminal investigation once they found out the command lying. There are several people they didn't even get statements from the witnessed the event. In particular, the one that was closest to Brandon at the time. When I say closest, I'm talking proximity. They never interviewed him, ever. So, NCIS does an incomplete investigation. The statements are falsified. They’re not accurate. They’re not the way they're supposed to be. So, then the command does what's called a command line of duty investigation. They completely covered up everything. I mean, everything. The statements are falsified, they lie about everything. There is no truth in this thing. Commanding officer, you know what he put out after Brandon died? He mustered the whole command and told them that if they talked to us, or the press, or anyone, or tell the truth about what happened to Brandon, it'll be considered mutiny, and will be sent to Fort Leavenworth prison. Almost one year later, when the executive officer took over by the name of Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28), he put out that same exact remark. Because two articles were coming out. It took us a year to get articles out and they knew about the articles. And they put that out before they came out and threatened the entire command again. Why would you threaten the entire command if you had nothing to hide, and you're innocent? So, this Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28) and Commander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28) are disgraces to the military, the Navy and society. If both commanders and come forward and told the truth, and they said, “Look, this is a tragic death. However, we learned from this, we've done training, we put new safety procedures in place. We’ve raised the bars on our training program. We have made the command more aware of people's feelings, and if they witness events to report it.” They would have gotten away with this. There's nothing we could have done to them. And then of course, they would have to go after the people that are guilty: AE1 Jared Brose Chief Doug Delasanro Chief Shelah Hennard Command Master Chief, David Tokarski Master Chief Pete Lerette NC1 Remmy Spence, All those people you would have, they would have to go after them of course and discipline them. But if they did, that both of their careers would be intact. And they'd be fine. And there's nothing we could do. The Navy they would say that yes, the chain of command let him down, and people let him down, and the commanding officers recovered from it and did this this and this. And that would be the end of it. But no, they chose to cover all this up All they cared about I guess was their career.

Marissa: I am so sorry for everything you guys went through and everything Brandon went through. I mean, I know that I had little to no part in any of it but I am like a mix of devastated for you and heartbroken and angry. Like I'm fuming. One of the things I wanted to kind of ask as a follow up is, I know that you said you called as a concerned parent, and you never called as retired military. But wouldn't they already know that? They would already know that, Patrick that you've had military experience.

Patrick Caserta: I was insulted and upset and they did know. They knew long time ago, I was retired military. And I had high position. I was the Serve Pack Fleet Counselor, when I was a Counselor. And I was in recruiting for 15 years. So, I knew what I was talking about, and they wouldn't listen to me. Like I said, they killed and murdered him. However, I will point this out. They will continue to kill. They will kill again, and again, and again, unless somebody does something about it. And the only way they can put an end to that, is to stand up to them. This case these people need to go. But there's always a new batch. We need to stop it from rising. And the way to do that is to clean house and the Navy needs to put out. Because if you were to call the Navy right now and talk to somebody that's in charge high up, nobody tells you about hazing, bullying, harassing sexual harassment. They're going to tell you there's zero tolerance. If that is the case, why is our son dead? How can he be dead if there's zero tolerance for bullying, hazing, harassing, torture, intimidating? If there's zero tolerance why is Brandon Caserta dead? They can't answer that question. All we want is justice for Brandon. Brandon asked us in writing, we can show you the letter, specifically says to get justice for him. Matter of fact, it says, “Make them pay for what they put me through.” And the only way to get that is we have to demand it. And we have to get the attention of the appropriate people to do something. And unfortunately, the military never does anything until they don't have a choice. And don't have a choice means that they are so embarrassed that they're going to do something. And that's news articles, podcasts, things of that nature. I mean, Congress knows about it. And they're outraged I mean; they really are. And they want to do something. HSC 28, Both commanders are very corrupt, and hardly anybody has come forward with this. They witnessed Brandon get abused, and they did nothing. Their fellow service member is dead and they don't share. That bothers us more than anything.

Marissa: Brandon story gets even more complicated, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Teri and Patrick are working tirelessly to give Brandon the Justice he deserves. You can hear the passion in Patrick's voice when he speaks. They are a very inspiring duo. And they're going to make major changes to the treatment of service members. Tune in here to hear the rest of this heart wrenching interview, I promise the content gets lighter. Everybody's story is a little bit different. Nobody has gone through exactly what you have. And although that can make us feel alone, know that by speaking out, you're inspiring others do the same writing a book is what gave me my start on this journey. I decided that even though I didn't feel that my story was as awful as what others experienced. If I could help one other person process and heal from what they experienced. It was worth telling. And it did. I received a ton of support and private messages from people who felt inspired and empowered by me speaking my truth. If you have a story that you want to share, I would love to help you start this journey. The people who have endured sexual assault and domestic violence all have the same notion. They just don't want anyone else to feel the way they did. We want to support everyone. Do yourself and our community service and consider writing your story or contributing it to my breaking through the silence series. your words and your voice are powerful, and your story can help others heal from their abuse. If you're interested, please send me an email to me at MarissaFayecohen.com and I would be thrilled to work with you on breaking your silence. Thank you so much.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!

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Wednesday Aug 05, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: MST Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Traci Sharpe

Wednesday Aug 05, 2020

Monday Aug 03, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: The Music Industry is Toxic: with Brian Morelli

Monday Aug 03, 2020

Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.

Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I wanted to get into how music and the music industry is impacted by sexual assault. I know that over the course of the last couple years, actors came out and spoke out about their abuse, and singers and musicians, and also fans of bands who were being abused and assaulted by the bands. So today, I brought on an expert in the music industry, who is also my best friend, also a radio DJ for a major station, and also the producer of this podcast. The accolades just keep building. So, welcome to Healing From Emotional Abuse Brian Morelli. He's a multi-instrumentalist, musician in the Jersey Shore music area. He's probably been in about 300 bands since I've known him. He's currently the music director for a major radio station, and has 15 years of music industry experience. Welcome Brian Morelli. I'm so happy you're here today.

Brian: Thank you very much, It's actually 248 bands.

Marissa: I just round up to the nearest 100.

Brian: Thanks for having me on. This is really cool.

Marissa: Of course, thank you for being here. And for everything that you do for me and for the podcast. You're awesome. So, let's chat music industry. So, over the course of the last couple years, a lot of bands have been called out for inappropriate sexual behavior. And that's kind of where I want to start. And as a music industry expert, I would love your take on that.

Brian: Oh, sure. Yes, of course. I mean, it's really nothing new in the music industry. Since the era of popular music had started, you had this perfect storm mix of abuse of influence, potentially substances, wealth, fame, and that is nothing new. That can arguably start with Jerry Lee Lewis and go up until now, in the past few years. And this is not to negate anything in the film industry. But the first outing of Harvey Weinstein from a lot of the survivors who have had experiences with him, that kind of started this snowball effect of the entertainment industry and people in the entertainment industry, who have abused their influence. So, it's really nothing new specifically in music. And recently, specifically, very, very recently, maybe the most notable case would be Dr. Luke, the producer who infamously worked with Kesha. And the whole lawsuit that had followed that. And Marissa, I know you know all about that.

Marissa: Oh, yeah. No, I definitely followed that case. And Praying, Kesha’s single that she released about her abuse is by far one of my favorited songs. It's just liked a power anthem for survivors.

Brian: Right? Yes. And so, to put it very broadly, the theme of power comes up in sexual assault, as you've defined many times before on here, and I’ll ask you to do that, again. But also that power in individuals in the music industry, not just in performers, but like producers like Dr. Luke and label executives, people who say, Hey, I could promise you all these things. Basically, ‘Harvey Weinstein’s' of the music industry. Many of them have not dealt with the repercussions yet. And that's still to come. But it's happening, you know, the dominoes are falling.

Marissa: Thank goodness! Because that, like you mentioned, they just they have such a hold on these performers, and on the people, who are aspiring performers, that it's so easy for them to take advantage and hold their career over their head. Because the producers and the agents and the managers, they have all the power. Dr. Luke literally had Kesha and tons of other pop artists, lives and livelihoods and careers in his hand. And would threaten to crush their careers and would threaten to end everything that they were building and working towards, if they didn't do certain things for him. And I know with Kesha, she said that he drugged her and raped her. So, she really didn't even have a memory of it. But that is abuse of power in its most infant form.

Brian: Yeah, I totally agree.

Marissa: So, thank you for bringing that up. I know that you and I have had conversations in the past, because you're a big metal fan, and I think you know where I'm going with this.

Brian: Okay, yes.

Marissa: Do you remember the band, I think it was Decapitated?

Brian: Yeah, that is. That's a very bizarre case. Because there are a lot of behind closed doors, legalities that I think went down with the band Decapitated, specifically. But the story was they're doing a North American tour, they were on the West coast, they were in Washington State, I believe it was. They played a show, now they're from overseas — they're a Polish band. And when they were playing a show, the story was that they had invited one or two female fans onto their tour bus after the show. And the story goes, that the entire band took part in the rape of one of those fans. The entire band denied it. They were held in an American jail. And then just one day, they were let go, and they were brought back to Poland, they were freed, and all the charges were dropped. So, there's a big chunk of the of the middle of that story that is missing. And that hasn't been brought back. Something else from the rock and metal world, I do want to actually bring up. There is a kind of an umbrella sub genre in rock and metal right now. It's somewhere between metal core and pop punk. It's a little bit emo. And those are bands that their target demographic is basically teens and early 20s. And that is a very weird chemistry that I did want to bring up. Those are bands with young fans, and they know that they are being marketed to young fans. That's also a style of music that isn't terribly mainstream. So, when these bands are signed, and they get into the music industry, they're in a really small, rather independent section of the music industry. Small record labels and stuff like that. So, with these bands that are smaller, but have some underground notoriety, they might have really active social media, but their record labels might not have the resources to hire a social media coordinator. So, the bands, the band members themselves, are policing their own social media accounts. So, when you have music that's really emotive, and it connects with young people in a really visceral way, where it kind of brings out this emotional response through its lyrics, and you have a thinly veiled social media presence where any fan can say, Hey, I love your music and tend to one, a member is going to respond saying, Hey, thank you very much, a conversation can ensue from that. So, there have been bands that have been brought down, specifically over the past month, oddly enough, by fans who some were underaged, some weren't. But they say that, hey, this member solicited pictures. This member sent pictures. This member engaged in lewd acts. And a lot of those members are dealing with the consequences now.

Marissa: I mean, I wish I could say I'm surprised. I'm just more disgusted. As an artist, right, The whole purpose of making music is all self expression. So, I guess I wonder if the being signed gives them like a power feeling? Or if they're just gross individuals to begin with? If you know that your target market is young, why would you even engage in that way? And the answer is power and control. People don't send lewd pictures, because they want people to see their genitalia. It's a shock value thing. I mean, I've received my fair share of unsolicited pictures of guys. And it was never because that person was genuinely interested in me. It was because they wanted me to feel a certain way. And they knew that sending that picture would make me feel that way. So, I guess I just don't understand why that behavior isn't met with consequences. Like what happens to these bands that are caught doing that stuff.

Brian: Right now, we are in such an interesting era of accountability. Certainly a new era of accountability and people, people call it cancel culture, which certainly has its pitfalls. And I'm not denying that for a second. But when you've got fans who are coming forward with their stories, and you then have a legion of fans who are supporting that person and believe in that person's story. It's a very powerful thing. There was a band who is very underground, but in that scene, that metal core scene. I don't think they're very good personally, but they're called Homewrecker. And a lot of allegations, and very serious allegations came against their lead singer. Came against, actually, a couple of members of that band. But most seriously toward their lead singer. Well, the entire band imploded. Not only did the band implode from all the heat that they got, just from their fans saying, how could you engage and stuff like this. But their record label is getting heat from the fans, the fans are turning to the record label saying, how could you have signed this band? Now, you could say the record label probably didn't know. The record label might have known but still, that's the representation of that label that, that band is acting like that. Not only that, that lead singer of that band, worked as a roadie for a much bigger metal band called Black Veil Brides. That band is getting heat from the fans, because they're saying how could you still have had this guy employed as a roadie. Dude doesn't even play a single note, he carries the cases. How could you employ and pay a roadie who does stuff like that? Cancel culture is a very powerful thing. At times that power can be misguided. That's a conversation for another time. I think that we're seeing a dawning of people believing the survivors, as opposed to taking the side of the “heroes.”

Marissa: And I think that that's so important. I’m really happy about that. And I'm happy that you've said it. I am thrilled, every time I go on Twitter, and look up #speakingout for the wrestling industry. And #metoo. Every time I look up those hashtags. Now, it's not met with anger and victim blaming. I mean, it still is sometimes, but the vast majority of people are supporting and empowering and advocating for survivors. I can't speak on this particular topic, because I'm not in the music industry. But I've been doing a lot of research in the wrestling industry. It's really quite beautiful that people are posting for other people that are afraid to come forward. You know, I have a friend who was impacted by speak out for the wrestling world. And that person is afraid to speak out for fear of retaliation. So a ton of their friends posted for them. And I think that, that camaraderie and that advocacy is so powerful. And back to the topic at hand, I'm so happy with this cancelled culture, Because I tend to side with survivors and champions if they speak their truth, I know that that's not easy to do. And so, I'm more apt to believe them, than side with an abuser. Does that make sense?

Brian: Yes. Oh, yeah, of course, there are still some gray areas and many stories that may have come up and may have disappeared mysteriously like that band Decapitated from before. One that comes to mind, and this happened a few years ago. This was one of the stories that kind of directly followed the Harvey Weinstein, the Kevin Spacey. this was during that timeline of events. The hard rock vocalist Maynard James Keenan, who's from the band Tool, and A Perfect Circle, and a few others. A very big front man, widely known in that world and in that universe, and there was one very, very detailed story of backstage abuse and sexual assault that he had committed against her. And I think one other story came out, it was so detailed, I never forgot it. And he was quick to come out and deny that and say, almost kind of laugh and shrug it off. Saying this is a pathetic money grab attempt. And then it all disappeared. And that's not the only occurrence that happens, an uncounted amount of times in the music industry, and I never forgot that person's story. And it might be completely unsubstantiated. But I never forgot it. So now when I listen to Tool, and I'm going to get to this in a second, because I do still listen to them. I do still listen to him. That is always in the back of my mind And I don't know how legitimate it is.

Marissa: So, yes, to everything. Yes. It's really that I think the fact that you heard the story, right, and then it disappeared in thin air is very telling, because that happens so much when people that are famous and with money are accused, right? Money Talks. And it's easier to pay someone off in silence them than it is to face reality go to trial. So, a lot of people will settle, either settle outside of court or try and pay them off. The accusers-off to stop telling their story or some of them are threatened with legal action or threatened that their lives or their families will be in danger. I mean, it's really disgusting, what happens when people speak out. And like we said before, generally people were always more apt to believe the “hero” or the “lead singer” or “the drummer” or, and that's why the stories just go away. And everyone just automatically assumes they were lying It's easy to write it off as a false report, which is why rape culture and victim blaming are so rampant.

Brian: Yes, of course. And it's rampant in the, in the music industry, certainly, you know, you have this sphere of influence, you have amazing technology. I mean, mind blowing technology that beats fan mail from 40 years ago. You can message somebody on Twitter or Instagram, some platform even TikTok now. And if you get that split second of that hero recognized what you said, that’s almost an addictive feeling for fans. And people who can want to interact, seek out more interactions with people with this influence. I think it kind of comes down to and I hate to arrive at this finish line. But I think it kind of comes down to people in show business and performers have to hold themselves accountable. Sounds easy. And it should be that easy. That's not without its pitfalls.

Marissa: I think we live in a very deny, deny culture, right? We're innocent until proven guilty. And all that jazz. I mean, I was taught growing up, if I'm in a car accident, never take responsibility for it. And I think that that is kind of ingrained in us, right? We never want to be at fault for anything. We never want to be held accountable for anything, because it'll just get us into trouble. But we do need to check ourselves. And we need to hold ourselves accountable for our actions. And we need to be held accountable by friends and family. And so how do we change that culture? Like how, what can we do to make it so that people hold each other accountable? I think that's like, the key to fixing rape culture.

Brian: Yeah, it should be as straightforward as lead by example. There are other musicians, there are other performers in show business who do just as much calling out as some of these people on the receiving end. I mean, it's not all bad. It's not all evil, there are good people. And there are responsible people in show business. And we would probably just have to see more public action, more statements. Listen, people aren't afraid of record labels anymore, because record labels don't hold the key to success anymore. They used to. And we're so brainwashed from that mindset that is decades old. But we don’t, nobody needs record labels anymore. So, a record label might have some sort of financial leverage on, “Hey, if you speak out, there are consequences.” But it's all survivable, the implications, the consequences, they are not as great as the moral consequences that could come from not reporting something. Not observing something and being vocal about it.

Marissa: I think more people need to be made an example of. I think that once we start actually holding people accountable, and giving like reasonable consequences and jail sentences for people who do sexually assault. the FBI qualifies rape as the second most violent crime behind homicide. So why isn't it given the same clout? Right? When you say homicide, or you hear the word homicide, you get chills? When you say or hear the word rape. It's almost met with like, a shrug of disbelief, right? Like, that doesn't really happen. And we know it does. You know, it's now more common to talk about than ever before, but it's still not worth coming forward or seeking some sort of legal action about because it's still not taken seriously in that domain. So, I want to shift topics. I know that in the last couple years, a lot of artists have released songs about women empowerment or sexual assault and how not to do it. Like Keith Urban's song, Female, is probably one of the best in my opinion, not only because I'm a big Keith Urban fan, but he also is a big advocate for domestic violence. It's like one of his main causes. Him and his wife, Nicole Kidman are big advocates for domestic violence survivors. But there are other artists that are putting out beautiful songs to help empower people to speak out and break their silence. So, do you think thing that will shift any mindsets, or do you think that'll make a difference?

Brian: Artistry is so subjective. So, it's a matter of what somebody is inspired by, in the moment to write a song like that. In artists like Keith Urban, he's brave enough to do that. And he would do well. And he would sell it well. Not sell being like crude financially mean that he would sell that subject matter. Well, he's believable.

Marissa: And he's genuine.

Brian: Yeah, totally. That is a big challenge for artists to be genuine about a field that maybe they don't have personal experience in. It takes trying and it takes wanting to do that. Action in artistry is always welcome. It's always, I think, greeted with some sort of praise. Risk taking is there. Might go against some commercial goals. But I kind of don't care about that.

Marissa: Right? You I think you're the one that told me that Praying was submitted for a single on the Billboard, whatever chart, and it didn't even break the top 30. But Praying is such a power song. And I mean, look at Till It Happens To You by Lady Gaga, I don't even think it broke top 100. But that song, God, it's so raw and honest and beautiful.

Brian: What's a bit problematic from there would be radio airplay. A lot of the charts are dictated by radio plays, and that is left up to radio programmers and a lot of them think about music very differently than the artists world. It's very objective. It's an objective way of looking at music, which can be infuriating. There's a way to finesse that though. But somebody who programs let's just say a pop station, they want the most up tempo, upbeat songs to keep their listeners engaged. So, when a pop artist like Kesha comes out with this inchworm — slow ballad, as powerful as Praying is as a song, you've got a legion of radio program is going oh my god. And from the radio side, I get why they're saying that. I'm in the country world. And when we got Female by Keith Urban, I have to say we said the same thing We're like, Oh, geez. But do you want your station to stand for that? Some programmers do some don't. And there introduces a new topic that could be problematic of silence

Marissa: 100% And by not getting the songs out to the people that need to hear them, you're doing a disservice to survivors, to the community to the artists. And I understand on one hand, a programmer’s perspective. Yes, the whole purpose of a radio station and making it profitable is to provide what the constituents and what the listeners want. So, you know, when you're driving a car, you don't want to hear a power ballad that's going to make you cry, you want to hear party rocking in the house, you're like, I understand that. But the part that you said where it, it's like silencing people. It's exactly the opposite of what all of these current movements, and all of these artists are trying to do.

Brian: Yeah, you're right. The music industry, and specifically, the radio industry is very mechanical in that sort of way with the music that comes out. And for a music radio station, whether it be Top 40, or Rock, or whatever the format is. On music radio station, the only product that they have is the music. That is the product. So, a lot of programmers look at that and say why take a chance on that. You'll see the potential of somebody, maybe not liking a song and tuning out. It's a very crude way of doing business. And the victims in that case, are the survivors who are being under represented.

Marissa: You're totally right. You know, the people who are really kind of getting the short end of the stick are the survivors that need to hear those songs.

Brian: It's unfortunate just how many artists over the years, over the entire era of 20th and 21st century popular music, how many artists have been problematic and how survivors don't have representation in music. It's easier to think of problematic artists. An R&B singer, a legendary R&B singer Sam Cooke, people don't remember how big of a piece of shit he was.

Marissa: Really?

Brian: Yeah. A history of sexual assault. Instances of rape that may have gone undocumented. He was killed in a shooting. He was at a motel with a young female fan. And he was being forceful, sexually, and then ultimately, it turned into an attempted rape. And the manager of the motel intervened with a firearm, and that's how he ultimately died — Sam Cooke. But people don't remember that. A lot of people just remember the music. It's a very rose-colored glasses sort of industry. And there are celebrities outside of the music industry right now, where their past isn't really being addressed as problematic. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a very tattered history. Many instances of sexual assault throughout the years. A horribly abusive marriage and now he's one of the biggest personalities on TikTok. Gen. Z doesn’t remember that. That's 20 years before Gen. Z, and they're not doing the research. So, I think we really need to examine who we follow.

Marissa: Right and make those histories stick. Clearly. I mean, I was aware of a bunch of the horrible things that Arnold Schwarzenegger did. The problem was he was never held accountable. It came up, it disappeared. But if we do the right thing as a society, and hold these people who are doing horrible, horrible things accountable, then you continue to hear about it. Like you will never not know that Hitler was a bad person. I don't care if you're born in the year 3000. It'll still be known that Hitler was a bad person. Why are we not defaming these people's characters enough that it sticks? We know that Jeffrey Epstein's a bad person? Right? There's a documentary about it, there are legal documents about it He was a horrible person. But I bet you in 10 years, people don't remember that. I'm sure they won't even remember him. But his crimes and the horrible things he did, should be remembered. Because when we forget history, it's doomed to repeat itself. Right? If we don't remember history, it's doomed to repeat itself. So, by not talking about it and not making a huge stink, that sticks, that's when we're doing a disservice to the younger generations like Gen. Z, who don't know the horrible things that Arnold Schwarzenegger did. Or Sam Cooke. That needs to be like, legendary status of these are bad people don't look up to them.

Brian: Yeah, yes, you're right. There's an interesting section of this conversation that can turn into how much of it do we tolerate? Can we separate art from artists? Sometimes you can and that's what I wanted to bring up. I'll reintroduce Maynard James Keenan and Tool. I can still listen to them But I'll always think about one person's story. And it might not even be real, I don't know. But I've got a tough time listening to Sam Cooke now. I know that that's real. Stand-up comedy is its own world. And you can have eight separate episodes about that. The most recent being Chris Delia, notably unfunny, and the big fallout in the past couple of weeks of his social media interactions with underage fans. So, I think it can become a less of a conversation about the severity of the crime, and just the fact that it was committed.

Marissa: Right. I love that. And I think that you and I should do a couple more episodes scattered about comedians and about separating art from artists. Because you and Mike Sellari, who came on a while ago, to talk about movies about narcissism, are really good at that, you can still listen to those people and recognize they were bad people but also like, remember their past but still listen to their music. And enjoy their music, or their comedy, or whatever. I am not the person that can do that. I was a huge Kevin Spacey fan and now I am a huge kill Kevin Spacey fan. And I mean that along with various others. I have a very difficult time separating the art from the artist, because I think that your art is a self-expression of who you are. So, when Louie C.K. was joking about jerking off in front of people, like his staff, he was actually doing it. That wasn't a separation of art and artist. But that is a separate conversation for a separate podcast episode that we can and should do if you want to.

Brian: Yeah, of course, I mean that that's an easy power move. You got to assume and I will safely assume that Louie C.K. probably went backstage after that set and said to a friend, “Hey, I literally just told my truth to everybody and I will never suffer any consequences.” There's arrogance in that and there's arrogance, obviously in power and in show business as well. Separating art from artists is difficult. It is so difficult. It kind of depends on a bunch of different variables. It depends on what the art is. It also depends on the severity of the crime. There are still people who can watch The Cosby Show reruns. I don't get it. That escapes me completely, because the allegations against the person are so serious, that how does that not infiltrate your mind? For some people, it doesn't. And okay. I have a tough time I mean; I can still watch reruns of Seinfeld and a mid 90s Jerry Seinfeld was involved in a consensual relationship with a 17-year-old. And that's the thing. When you have to use an age of consent law to justify your actions. The issue is already outside of that justification.

Marissa: Right. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to judge anybody else's lifestyle. You like who you like, but if you're in your 30s, or 40s, and you're interested in a teenage person, I mean, that, to me, seems like an error. Like a computer error, right? It's like a glitch. Why are you attracted to somebody that is so much younger than you. And fine age of consent laws, those were created for marriages. Back in the day, like, I don't want this to sound shitty, but like, I'll never understand it. I had friends in high school when we were 16 and 17 that were dating 26- and 28-year-old. And I, to this day, don't understand that because I'm 29 right now. And I could never find somebody who's that young, sexually attractive. Not only are we not on the same maturity plane, and I know this is anecdotal evidence, but you're in a different life. You know, aeons ahead of just in wisdom, that person. I look at 16- and 17-year old’s, his children, you know. They still have so much growing to do and learning to do and I could never imagine myself being in a sexual relationship with them in any way.

Brian: It's just an educated guess, really. But I hate to bring up potentially the unfair assumption into this, but I think it might not even be an issue of physical attraction to a younger person. I think it's more of a physical attraction to the influence. It's more of a power trip. It's an influence trip that you can get over somebody who's younger. And it's getting off on ageism, and that is weird. And that is gross. And that is murky.

Marissa: Right. I agree. And going back to separation of art and artist. I didn't know that about Jerry Seinfeld. I've also never really been a fan of Seinfeld the show. And I get flack for that constantly. But a point of contention between Larry and I, for anyone who doesn't know Larry's my boyfriend, and he's a big Derrick Rose fan. And he's, you know, a big Kobe fan and those two people were also accused. He loves movies, like I do, but he like you, separates the art from the artist. And so, Ben Affleck Big point of contention for us because Ben Affleck is in so many amazing movies that I can't in good faith watch because he sexually assaulted a news anchor. He knew about Harvey Weinstein and didn't speak up or say anything. And he openly admitted that he said, yeah, we all knew. It was like a boy’s club and for me, that's disgusting. You know, if you know that he is hurting so many people and you do nothing about it. You are equally as accountable. You are equally as guilty.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah, of course. In the film industry, there is a decade's old mentality of Hollywood is untouchable. The biggest people there are untouchable. Harvey Weinstein can break you if he really wanted to. He can Absolutely. He can erase your career from existence make it like you never even were born. And people in Hollywood were so afraid of that. And I'm sure there are still big individuals that people are still afraid of. There's the fear of the consequences of outing somebody. There's also this whole arrogance of, Yeah, we're an exclusive club, and you can't touch us. But again, I truly believe we're in a new era of accountability. And I am so optimistic about that. I again, will reiterate that I think cancel culture needs a bit of a tweaking, but the hearts are in the right place. And I truly believe we're going to see famous people benefit more from showcasing a moral compass than not.

Marissa: I agree, and I truly hope so. I love everything that you’re saying, I want cancel culture to be beneficial and productive. And I want people who are bad people — who hurt people on purpose, to be held accountable for their actions. Like, I don't think that's such a big ask. If somebody's murder somebody, they're held accountable. If somebody, robs somebody, they're held accountable. If somebody breaks into your home, they're held accountable. So why is somebody forcing themselves on a person taking away their control, violating their personal space, psychologically damaging people. Like, why doesn't that hold the same weight as property and as murder? I mean, by doing such horrible acts, you're changing a person. You're literally retraining their brain to believe that they are not good enough. That they are objects. That they are unworthy. Like, that is so powerful, but that's less investigated, and has less clout than somebody breaking into my house and stealing my TV. Why? You know, and I hope that the world is changing And I see the world starting to change on Twitter and I, mentioned this in several podcasts, but I am so proud of Gen. Z, and the younger generations, because they are moving mountains, right now, faster than any other generation. They are the trolls. They are the people that are the most accepting and tolerant and loving and doing everything they can to create the world that I wanted to grow up in, and didn't have the know-how, or the resources. I'm like, honored to be advocating for them, and to be alive in the time that they are doing such great work. And so, I just want to say thank you, to everybody who's using the internet responsibly and using it to promote beautiful societal changes. Thank you. That is so important. And it's impactful. And whatever backlash you get, no, it comes from a place of fear, and loss of control. And that you guys are doing the right thing and on the right path. And I am here to support anything and everything that you guys are doing and saying. And you have a good chunk of millennials that will stand with you.

Brian: I like to think that we’re hopefully the last passive generation, us millennials. And I wish I could frame everything you just said Gen. Z has it going on. Really, Gen. Z. They are the generation that is actually idolizing a higher moral compass and they are the ones pushing for personal accountability. You know what, if Dr. Luke was working right now and Kesha happened, it would be a swift eraser of anything Dr. Luke has ever done. And Praying worked. It really did. And Kesha’s actions absolutely worked. But not after Dr. Luke had his run of the music industry and people in it. So, Kesha’s not the only person there. He's got countless victims, unfortunately. And it took a long, long, long ass time to get him out of the industry. Because he had such influence. He held every major hit from the past, like 15 years, from 2016 back, that he probably owned a third of the popular music industry. That's how powerful he was. And it took so long to take him down. But if that was going on today, it would barely take a week and he'd be gone. And that is Gen. Z's actions, and people who are tech savvy and who do wish for better and push for it. Millennials, my own generation, my goodness, am I disappointed at how passive we are. But hey, it's okay. We've got kids to take care of so.

Marissa: No, I agree. And, you know, I almost wish more people that Dr. Luke hurt would come forward, because they're coming forward into a world that will coddle them. You know, I know that when Kesha was trying to get out of her Sony contract, Adele donated a huge chunk of money, and so did Taylor Swift, and a bunch of other female artists who worked under Dr. Luke. Kelly Clarkson even came out and spoke not against Dr. Luke but said that she's aware of happenings and didn't admit if anything happened to her or not, didn't disclose anything. But it's so telling just the support that she got, even though it was delayed. And I'm happy that Dr. Luke is out of the industry because of all the horrible things he did. But now it's time for everyone to speak out. Which is happening and I'm so happy to be alive for it. I just I want to see everything move faster now.

Brian: I truly believe it will I’m not just here spitting out optimism for the sake of it. I truly believe that we’re getting there. We’re getting there fast, too. A lot of those big-wigs in the industry, the big heads there, that had the power and control over the entertainment industry for the past few decades, their tenure is almost up. They’re getting out, and they’re getting out fast. Sometimes from the cutting of some disgraceful actions, and sometimes, just from age. But there is going to be a new wave of new people coming in, and I only feel optimistic about that.

Marissa: Me too. Is there anything else? Is there any other advice you want to give to survivors?

Brian: Yes. I mean, my advice for survivors is, don’t feel afraid to come forward. Marissa had said that you’ll be walking into a world of support. And those who don’t, they’re on the outs. The people who still believe in the “heroes”, that is an old mentality, and that mentality is being shifted. So, if you’re afraid of public opinion, I understand that. But there’s less to be afraid of now with that, than there may have been years ago.

Marissa: And if coming out is something that you want to do, or speaking out about your abuse, breaking your silence is something that you want to do publicly, but you’re afraid of the backlash, find me on Twitter @MarissaFCohen, and tag me in it. And the second somebody says something nasty, me and thousands of other people are going to shame them. And I am committed to that. That’s my favorite thing to do. To try and correct people who are victim blaming. That is also an option if that’s something that you want to do publicly but you’re afraid.

Brian: That is an incredible resource for people.

Marissa: So thank you so much for being here Brian. This was an awesome conversation that we’re probably going to split into several different podcasts. We covered a lot of topics. Thank you again so much for all the information, and the work you’re doing for survivors.
Brian: Thanks for having me on. This really was a blast.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!

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Thursday Jul 30, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Wrestling Speaking Out: With BCP and Jen Casale

Thursday Jul 30, 2020

Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.

Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special episode of the BCP / breaking through our silence podcast connection as we continue to breaking through the Speak Out movement with my tag team partner herself. Multiple-time Amazon award-winning Best-Selling Author, my good friend Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa what's up?

Marissa: Hey, tag me in, how are you?

Rob: I'm good. There's no partner I'd rather have right now doing well, you know, as we say all things considered 2020 has been crazy. But we're doing what we can over here. And right now we're so I'm so honored to be talking to someone that I've honestly been a fan of for a while now, both in the ring, and on social media. And of course, we're so happy to welcome to the show a Pro Wrestler, Cosplayer, and a certified PHR. What a resume. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show Miss Jen Casale. Jen, how are you?

Jen: I am doing well. How are you guys?

Rob: Doing well, all things considered. Yeah. But um, Jen, thanks so much for a few minutes of your time. You know, you do it all. Like I said, What a resume. First and foremost, you know, it's 2020. It's COVID World. How are you? How's the family making out? How are you doing right now?

Jen: We're doing pretty well. You know, things. I'm out in Philadelphia. So, things are kind of half open and half closed. And we're kind of doing what we can. We're getting in, you know, a little wrestling as socially distant as we can, when we can. And yeah, we're just we're trying to get by taking it day by day doing our best to stay safe.

Rob: Yeah, I think we all are more importantly, you say Philly. what is the best cheesesteak?

Jen: Ah, that's a tough one. Because everybody's going to tell you like Jim's or you know. They're like, everybody's taking you to the tourist spot. But there's a really good spot right outside of Philadelphia that I like a lot. That's called Leo's and it's out in Folcroft, PA. It's like, a mile out of the city limit.

Rob: Awesome. I know. I'm asking the hard-hitting questions already. But I'm a foodie, so, I got to know all the good spots in America tells me about the Chicago pizza and all that. But anyway, let's get to some real talk here, ladies. And again, Jen, thank you so much for your time You know, so let's start at the beginning here. You know, we see this hashtag speak out is hashtag speaking out. movement starts to trend on Twitter. Jen, I want to know your initial reaction. Were you surprised? Were you expecting this, I want to know your gut reaction here?

Jen: I was so happy; I was so happy. I mean, it's so sad and so happy all at the same time. I was really filled with a great mix of emotions, because I came into the Wrestling World probably about four years ago. And ever since I got here, I saw the need for this to happen. And I saw a couple people speak out here and there. And whenever would happen, it would get brushed under the rug. It would get shooed away those people would be the, “Difficult to work with.” They wouldn't get hired anymore. Which was really sad. But then it's this, that was like the whole dichotomy of like. Well, do you want to just kind of deal with this culture so that you can pursue this thing that you love? Or, you know, you know, or do you just like, stop and take a stand? So, for me, I waited a really long time. I'm very, very old to be in wrestling. But I waited a long time, because when I was young, the only option was to you know, I was working as a stunt woman when I was 18. And they were like, go be a wrestler, go be a wrestler. And, you know, I was like, No, I don't want to have a bra and panties match. That's like, you know, I don’t want to rip my somebody else's clothes off in a ring while the guys get to have all the fun. That's not what I'm here to do. So, I waited, and I waited, and I waited. And it seemed to get better. You know, you saw women in wrestling having main events and doing things. And I'm like, Yes, we can all do this! And you know, I got here and it's so much better than it was, but there's still so much, you know, kind of muck leftover. And then things that are so ingrained in the culture that they just… people don't even know that they're doing things wrong when they're doing them wrong.

Rob: Absolutely. It's such a crazy time. But I did want to ask you, you know, this is very interesting to me, because we have a lot of people come on the show and say you know, wrestling — if this was another business this would happen. Wrestling needs a human resources department; we were kind of talking about this off air you are a certified PHR. Tell us a little bit about that. And how that that plays into the wrestling business a little bit.

Jen: So, to be a certified PHR, it's a certification test that you take. So, it allows you to put those fancy letters after your name, which I still feel really funny about doing. Because I'm like, I'm not a doctor or anything like that. But actually to take the test, The qualifications are that you either have to have a doctorate in a related field or you have to have worked in the field for at least five years. So, I was not fortunate enough to go to college for all that time. But I was fortunate enough to have a lot of work under my belt. And I took the test and I was very surprised I passed it on my first try. There's only about a 50% pass rate for everyone who takes the test. And it's everything the test is everything from, you know, Benefits Administration to, you know, Sexual Harassment and Sensitivity training. To the hiring and onboarding and firing and how companies are structured. You really have to know your business, inside and out. And literally knowing every part of running a business goes into taking that test. So, for me, that was a real badge of pride. I passed it in 2018. I continued to work in human resources in a regular 9-5 job. And I kind of when I got to start training at CCW, I literally came in and I feel like I'm such a nerd in this way. But I literally came in to a Dojo, where it was maybe my first month or my second month in before I was even wrestling, and I had like a whole business plan. And I was like, Hey, this is how we can make things better around here, like you could make more money, things could be more organized. And like I said, I'm such a dork in that way. But I think because in wrestling, paying your dues is something that you have to do. And I most certainly hadn't, you know, earned my stripes at that point. You know, I took my time to do that. And I've worked very hard while I am here, in order to kind of say, like, I understand wrestling is so different than any other business. So, people say, Oh, well, you know, and no other business would run without HR. Wrestling is unlike any other business in the world. There is literally nothing like it that I have personally experienced. And I've worked in the entertainment industry and other fields. So, I'm to come into wrestling and to find just exactly how human resources can fit and, and should fit has been a really interesting journey. And I think it took the speaking out movement for people to be able to be receptive to it. So that. And I think also, you know, and it's a funny thing to say, but having the pandemic where everybody had to slow down, everybody had to shut down, you know, people can't run shows, they're not over run by that every day, you know, I'm out here, I'm working, I'm grinding, because most wrestling companies will tell you, they're held together by a string in a dream. And everybody's just trying to get it, you know, get it by everybody loves people that are in wrestling. They get it by, like on the love of it. Um, you know, so that gets trying to get that little bit of profit margin out where you can, you do and so you end up sacrificing things like administration. And you end up you know, foregoing those things, and they really were never there in the first place, unless you have a huge company, like a WWE. And even in a huge company like that, they might have a human resources department, but that's maybe not the way the thing should be. You care not just about things as far as things inequality for minorities, but, sexual allegations and injuries and you know, all of you know, working through injuries, when people should know all kinds of stuff like that has gone on and has been really like, really, really in the Wrestling World. And everybody's like, so shocked. They're like, how could this still go on? And when I tell you, when you are in this business, there is just such a love for what we do. And once you get the bug for it, it's just, you know, it's thrilling in a way that nothing else is. So, you know, people want to keep going, and you kind of do. I found myself turning, you know, turning the other cheek, turning my head the other way to things, even kind of falling into the culture myself. And so that's one of the things when I do talk to wrestlers about sexual harassment, I say, you know, that was something, I did it. Like, I'm guilty of doing it myself, because one of the things you know, girls always joke about is the, you know, the unwanted dick pics. They're going to come, you know, people tell you like when you get in wrestling, this is going to happen to you and people are going to send it and it's not just that because cosplay is definitely something where that is pretty common as well. But, you know, my solution was fight fire with fire. So, if I was going to get somebody who's going to send me one of those, you know what, I was going to send them the picture of the last guy that sent one to me. Because, you know, it is it's like kind of like a cute, funny creative way to feel like you got revenge. But you know, when I really looked at it, I was like, you know, I'm really just kind of like, instead of doing something to make things better, I'm just kind of perpetuating the culture. So, um, you know, it took that kind of step back and looking at my own behavior too. Because they think we all you know, as girls in wrestling, you know, you have to be really tough to be in wrestling. Girls, guys, everybody. And I think you know, as women like Well, the things that goes on this like, again, for the culture is that girls are not very good wrestlers and you'll hear that all the time. So, you spend a lot of your time trying to be one of the boys. And, you know, I may sit on the fence about a lot of those issues where it's like, well, should there you know, how much safe space should there be? And, you know, what is safe space and all of that. And that's stuff that we're all really kind of like working through and finding right now. And you know, what the lines are and what to do and what not to do. And it's just, you know, it's kind of all very new for everybody.

Rob: And the women. I will say this, lots of comment on here. First of all, is there anything you don't do, I'm like clapping my hands right now. You do a little bit of everything. That's amazing. And women's wrestling right now is on top. The women are really killing it. That's just my opinion. But speaking of women that are killing it, let's turn over to Miss Marissa Cohen.

Marissa: So, I first of all, I love your spirit. So thank you for being you. And thank you for being an advocate and an HR rep and for doing the sensitivity training and the sexual harassment training and trying to make a difference. I do have to comment on the most creative way to combat dick pics. And I have to admit that I've done similar things to people. Yeah, so story. Short story. On the day of my last book launch. Some guy hit me up on Instagram, who I did not know he asked me if I was into trades, and now me, naive me was like, I don't know what that means. And I got a dick pic. So, what did I do? I went on unnamed porn site screen-shotted sent dick pic. I was like, I mean, how, first of all, like you, if you're reaching out to me on the day of my book launch, you clearly know what book I am promoting. Right. And then, you know, I like I was mad. But I mean, that was a really it was it made me feel good. So yeah, I hear you.

Jen: And that's it. Yeah, it's crazy, right? That as you're like, Oh, good. It’s very vindicating. Because you feel like at least you got to get that you know, something back.

Marissa: But the worst part of all of it is people don't send dick pics because of sexual urges. They send it because of control and shock value. Right? So, if somebody sends you a dick pic, it's not because they're like, “Oh, I think she'll be really into me. Yeah, if she sees my dick.” It's, it's, I want to make her feel as uncomfortable as possible. How do I do that very quickly. You know. And I think that, that culture being, you know, not okay, but like tolerated in any industry is really, really toxic, and really, really unhealthy. And that is like the first thing that needs to go, because that element of control is the gateway to sexual harassment.

Jen: It is and is a crazy thing, that's my, my big crazy thing with wrestling and, you know, I'm really like, taking time to explore is that a lot of wrestling, not just in the ring, but it's certainly outside the ring as well. A lot of it is about control and there's a lot of funny situations that you find yourself in. So, you know, the wrestling match itself is a bout of control, who's in power, who's on top, who is losing, who's winning. That's control right there. You know, and so that that's like a thing that's all about control. And then you also find yourself in these funny situations with promoters, because everybody is an independent contractor. So you are, you know, you're negotiating your own pay. And that's like a little, you know, control bout that you're having with the, you know, the person that's the promoter. And there's a lot of amazing promoters out there that take care of you and just give you the rate that you asked for. And then there's some people that want to kind of nickel and dime you. And that's a little control game. So, there's a lot of those little pieces of control that are all over wrestling, where you kind of find that all over and if you can kind of like spot it when it's happening. And that's when you want to help especially, you know, young people, not just young women in wrestling, but like all young people in wrestling that don't have a ton of life experience out in the world. So that you kind of know what's going on in those situations when you find yourself where somebody is trying to control you or manipulate you. And you can say take a minute stop and say hey, what's really going on here? And let me not just like have my emotions rule this situation or have their emotions rule the situation. But go ahead and you know, figure out what's really going on?

Marissa: Absolutely. And I think that's a huge benefit of having HR and HR experience, right? So, you as HR for your company can look out for the younger guy, younger people and have their back so when promoters try and nickel and dime them you can say no, no, that's not what you agreed on. Or when somebody is harassing somebody, you can step in — or HR somewhere can step in and stop it right there.

Jen: Even I'm so sorry to interrupt or just say even just giving people the tools that they need the tools that they need. So, we do like peer mediation is something we've been training with a little bit here. So that people kind of understand in the moment of a conversation, so that they can stop and recognize. And sensitivity training is big on that, too. So, you can kind of stop and recognize like what's going on, rather than just kind of like feeling the feelings.

Marissa: Right. I think that's amazing. So, keep doing what you're doing.

Jen: Thank you. And I think one of the other funny, when we were talking about funny situations, too, that you find yourself in, in wrestling, that makes like, a lot of the sexual harassment situations really weird is that like, you're going to be in a situation every time you're wrestling where somebody’s crotch is in your face, or your face is in their crotch. Or you're picking them up by their crotch, like, so there's a lot of that. And I think as human beings, we deal with those uncomfortable situations with humor. And I think that's, like, perfectly natural. But the balance is like, where do we find… where is you know, what's funny, what's not funny? What's humor? To who? And it's all different to every person?

Marissa: Absolutely. But I think that's the power of consent, right? The power of consent and communication. But you guys work mainly off of body language. I imagine I mean; I've never wrestled in a ring with anyone. But I can imagine that there's a body language communication there. So, you know what, or you can anticipate what's going to happen? And tell me if I'm wrong, stop me if I'm wrong.

Jen: No, you're not wrong at all.

Marissa: Okay. So why can't, why can't we translate that body language in the ring to verbal communication outside the ring, you know, being able to read somebody's body language, or say what you just did or said, makes me uncomfortable, and I don't like that.

Jen: And that just has to become a practice. And that's something that you know, we're working, we're certainly working on here at CCW Dojo, at the academy here. You know, just people being comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, if we can wrestle around in the, you know, 100 degree heat, and we can sweat on each other, then we can certainly say when we feel uncomfortable to each other. And it's just a matter of practice, just like anything else. You get better at it and it gets easier, the more that you do it, the first bunch of times, you're in the wrestling ring, even coming back from us being off for quarantine for three months, you take those first couple of bumps in the ring, and the next day you wake up and you are so sore, and it hurts so bad. So the first time you have that really uncomfortable conversation, where you tell somebody that's been making you uncomfortable, every time they you know, they look at you and you know, you come out in your gear, or they make a comment every time, you know, you do a move in the ring. You know, when you finally you kind of rip that band aid off, and you're like, you know what it really, you know, like, it really makes me uncomfortable when you do this, or I preferred if you'd not do it or you prefer it, if you compliment me in this way, instead of that way. It's real cringy. It's real painful to do it the first couple of times. But you know, we've all come together here to say that we're going to have a supportive environment for one another. And we did that by outlining a code of conduct and going through it with everyone and having everyone sign off on it. So that we can all be committed to having a good environment here and supporting each other, and getting, you know, getting through those uncomfortable situations until we're all comfortable being uncomfortable.

Rob: Wow, really well said and something we have asked pretty much everyone we've had on during this series, I want to hear your thoughts on this. We talked about apparently, it's common for there not to be a locker room or a shared locker room. We also addressed you know a lot of these big cons that we've had, you know, obviously before all this COVID stuff, where the indie talent would have to go pick up the big names. And that's where a lot of these speaking out stories came from, that we see on Twitter and such. Your kind of thoughts on the shared locker rooms and these airport pickups and maybe some things we could do to change that.

Jen: And it's interesting because I also come from, I have a theatre background from when I was younger as well. So, I think we have those, you know, those shared co-ed locker rooms is something that I've been around for a really, really long time. And it's one of those things to just to me like it doesn't phase me. And I think that there is now going to be a possibility in indie wrestling anytime in the very near future where we can see widespread separate locker rooms because they think when you had Risa on here, she was talking about having, how difficult it is to have separated locker rooms because you have co-ed matches, oftentimes. And I've experienced that myself, because, you know, sometimes you'll have a match and there'll be guys that need to be involved but you're in the women's locker room. You know, when a company has done their best to you know, make a safe space for everybody so that we wouldn't run into issues. But I think the issue is not, the solution to the problem is not to separate people, it's to bring people together. So, it's not to say that everybody should always have a shared locker room, but it's to say that we should all change our culture, which takes time, and we all need to have patience with. So that the we can exist in the same space and not be shitty to each other. You know, is it can't always be about separation? Because that's just kind of, you know, in a way ignoring the problem. In a perfect world. Yes, um, you know, you're saying like, Oh, we should have men's locker rooms and women's locker rooms, and then maybe a separate place where we can all meet together? Well, what about people that are transgender? There's lots of people that are in the Wrestling World, and certainly more all the time about, you know, fall into somewhere in between. Where are they? Where do they, and this is something they have to deal with in their everyday lives. But you know, in wrestling, where people are a little bit more gritty, is that how do we make those people feel comfortable? How do we make them feel welcome, and where do they go, and usually, it's just, you know, that's their life, and they've lived that, so they go where they're most comfortable. But like I said, I think for us is just a work in changing the culture so that we can all be together, and just be good to one another. And I don't expect it to happen overnight. It’s a culture. The wrestling culture has been, what it is, in some form or another for over 100 years. So, for me to, as one, you know, one lady to come in here and take, I'm going to change it all overnight is a little silly. But I think, you know, I can at least, you know, a lot of people came out, and they spoke out and they told their stories. And that sparked other people to say, Hey, we don't need to take this, let's all get together and be better.

Marissa: But now, it's about doing something to promote that change. So, what do you think we can do to really promote that change of culture?

Jen: For me, I think is certainly, you know, I know that I can affect it on an academy level on a school level, because you're getting people that are coming into the business. So, I think that's I wanted to start at the foundation. So that's where I have chosen to start within my organization, and really restructure it there. And I know other people, you know, other companies that I've worked for, Titan Championship Wrestling, they also have taken steps to make sure that they're treating their training their people, they’re training their talent on sexual harassment, because there are some people that have been in wrestling since they were, you know, they come people come to wrestling, because they have bad homes. And they've been in wrestling, since they were maybe 13, or 14, and no one ever told them, what was the right way to act, and what was the wrong way to act. And all they have to go on is what they see. And then the other thing that happens is, sometimes you'll have a show, and there's literally three generations of people, which is so cool. There are three generations of people on one show. Like, That's amazing. But what is the divide? And how can we expect everybody to have the same values, because they don't come from the same homes, they don't come from the same generation, they don't, they didn't go to the same church, they didn't grow up the same way. So why on earth could we expect them to all come together and just, it should just work out, Right? Unless we tell them, it's our job, you know, as people that are part of administrations, and, you know, part of companies, just as it isn't a business, it's our job to educate people to tell them when you are here, this is how we expect you to act. And, yeah, I think anyone just expecting someone to behave in the way that they would just want to behave is crazy. You know, you've talked about a bull in a china shop. You wouldn't expect the bull to come in there and, you know, actually play and not knock anything over. So, in that sense, you know, like I said, it's our job to educate, it's our job to say, this is what's right, this is what's wrong. And it is painfully basic, in a lot of ways, but then you can go back and hold people accountable. And it is about getting signatures. It is about saying, here's the code of conduct. And we literally go over it every class. So some people that are at classes five times a week, they hear it over and over and over again. But you know, what, they know what it is already. So, you know, it's getting those signatures and then holding each other accountable. And then having you know, we have all kinds of things in place, we have a school form that you can fill out anonymously or non-anonymously, and submit so that it comes in and if you have an issue, that issue will be handled immediately. Um, and you know, like I said, we have the Code of Conduct everyone signs off on that. We have the sexual harassment training that we've already started. And then the sensitivity training that we're going to be doing as well. And having those trainings and saying, this is what it is, this is what we expect. And when people don't live up to it, it's a matter of holding them accountable, which is tough for promoters to do. Because let's say you have your top guy, and he's in your storyline. And, you know, this is what you're riding on, this is what your draw is where the people are coming to see. And all of a sudden, this guy does something horrible, or we find out something horrible about him. They're not so prone to just like, throw this guy to the wind, because everything's riding on this guy. But we have to get to a point, because in some senses, wrestling is one of the only businesses where you can do that. You know, because stories change the they always they have the same card subject to change. So, people need to get comfortable promoters in particular, that that can happen. And that I think they have because you really saw how many people when speaking out happened, lost positions. They lost their jobs, whether they were held accountable, literally by society.

Rob: Very well said and, you know, especially in wrestling, like you're right, you can't scrap storylines, because like, who was the anonymous brand General Manager, you know, what I'm saying? I digress. But that's a really good point and on a serious note, you know, you mentioned, you know, you have all these different generations. I'm all about, you know, promoting the talent, getting them, you know, as much as I can, you know, to put them over, as we say, in the business here. And we talked to a lot of younger talent, we're very high on a lot of these younger talents, that, quite frankly, I think are going to go very, very far. We're going to see them on TV and no time. But I do worry, especially when I see all this stuff about them. What's your kind of thought, on protecting these younger talents? What's the future look like for these guys right now,

Jen: I like I was saying earlier, it's all about education with them. I, you know, I always have this, I have this picture. And I wish that I had it for you guys. And I have to have to locate it. But it's a picture of me as a baby. And it's really shocking. It's really shocking, because my grandmother is holding me next to my mother in a hospital bed, I'm a newborn, and my grandmother has a cigarette in her hands. And you're like, Oh, my God, you get thrown out of a hospital today, if that happens, you know, you would literally get ejected from the hospital. But that was social norms, then. We have to help our young people understand that some people that are in the older generations have these different values, because life was different when they were younger. And we have to find ways to hold people accountable. Without I think, just burying everybody immediately. So that we can all continue to have a better culture. Because you can't just wipe the slate clean of all of the people that came before you because so much of wrestling is about tradition. And so much of wrestling is about you know, those who came before you passing the torch down to the next generation. That's so important. And it's such a cool thing to me about wrestling. But we just have to get, like I said, young people, it's just, it's education and communication. Anything for young people today have a tough time. Because they think I'm in the middle of the different generations that I see currently in wrestling. But I think people that are younger that come in, they really have a difficult time expressing their feelings. I'm aware, you know, I think people that are in the older generation, tend to just say their feelings, regardless of how it's going to affect anyone else. So, I like there is a middle ground that we can all meet in here.

Marissa: That comes with comfort, right? So, if you have if you're a veteran, and you have this pedestal, or you have a platform, I feel like you're more confident in that and you are more likely to speak out about what's happening. But if you're new, I mean, your reputation is riding on this on this situation. And you can either blackball yourself or you can, you know, actually have a career or a chance at a career. And I think that's really where the disconnect is, in my very, very humble opinion.

Jen: Yes, no, I think you really hit the nail on the head there. And one of the things that we've put in place here at the CCW Academy is we've done we've done like a two-layer system. So, we have a mentor — trainer. That is a person that's a trainer, one of the trainers that we have here is assigned to every new student. They have a vested interest in their development. They're like one-on-one, they get a one-on-one meeting every month. You know, and they are that person's person to go to. And if it's not working out, it can be reevaluated and they can be switched to another trainer. We also pair everybody up, That's new, with a buddy. So, they have an elder student that's here that's kind of like you know, already knows the ropes and everything else. So that this person is going to be properly integrated into our culture that we have here. So, if they're messing up, because you know, if you don't know that you're messing up, you know, somebody's going to tell you you're messing up, you know, or you're not doing the right thing, you're not doing your ring crew duties or, you know, whatever it is, you might be doing, somebody's going to be there to tell you. So that's what we're trying to get this kind of like twofold mentorship in place, so that everybody that comes in, that's new always feels like there's someone to go to, because they think that that was, you know, my personal experience, certainly in, you know, the first school that I went to, I felt really alone and like afraid all the time, I didn't know what was going on, or what was happening. And then I came to CCW and I was very, very accepted here. And, and I was really given, you know, so much creative freedom to do all kinds of different things that I've been hearing, which was awesome. But I think as a student experience, people really need to feel made at home. And they need to feel like they're a part of what's going on. And I think that's a big part of creating a safe environment. You need to know that you belong, and what is okay and what is not okay. And you need that kind of person on a, you know, on a tutor level, who is, you know, here and is in charge who is a trainer. And then you also need that person that's like, Hey, this is my buddy, this is my peer. This is a person who am eye-to-eye with that's helping me out.

Marissa: That's an awesome system.

Rob: I just wanted to chime in here. I'm curious. Obviously, no stranger to inter-gender matches, no stranger to rolling with guys in a faction. Behind the scenes, I've been behind the curtain from a journalistic perspective, you know, where we shake everyone's hand everyone's brother, sister, we see all that respect. You know, not to go into detail or not to name names or not trying to make you say anything. But I'm just curious, you know, very obviously very powerful woman in the ring and outside the ring. I'm curious, like, what your experience was, like, you know, going through this Wrestling World, that's such a wacky circus. Was it mostly positive? Did you encounter some, like negative experiences where people tried to take advantage of you one way or another?

Jen: So, I’ve definitely had, have had experiences on both sides of the fence. I would say, you know, I've just been always fortunate enough to be a self-aware human, that I knew that when I was younger, and I saw things in wrestling that weren't good. I said, hey, that's not for me now. And that when I got into it, you know, I thought, like, Hey, I'm older than all these people, and I know better. And none of this stuff is going to happen to me. And, you know, lo and behold, they're still situations that I did find myself in. But I think, you know, everything that happens to you in life can be looked at, you know, as a, you know, you can hold on to your anger, you can look at it as a learning situation. And that's really what I did. I was like, hey, you know, what's going on? Here's not for me, I'm going to go look at things in other places. Because I knew that I loved wrestling more than I disliked shitty people. So, you know, I was able to take them. Like I said, I was so amazed because they think I came to I was afraid to come to CCW, because they had a terrible reputation. And they did like the around in, you know, the circle of wrestling there, Oh, don't go over there. Bad things are going to happen. And I came here and I had nothing but positive experiences. Like I said, I was given such a platform to just creatively like, do, if I worked really hard at what I was doing, no matter what I was doing, I was given the creative freedom to do it. So, I've been able to be here in so many different capacities and do so many different things. It's been just so, so amazing. And I've been so thankful, like so, so thankful for the experience. And I found people that have really kind of taken me under their wing, and taking care of me along the way. But do I think, you know, like, I still felt that way. And I think that's just me as a person saying, like, Hey, I feel like an outcast because I'm, you know, here I am, you know, in my late 30s and then I'm, you know, in the ring with people who are 16-17 years old. And you're like, what am I doing here? At some point, this is weird. This is uncomfortable. Is this right? Should I be doing this with my life right now? But everybody always was so patient with me here and everybody was always so kind to me here. And, you know, I when I came, I was here I was coming off an injury, I made a really bad break that had hardware in it, and it took me a long, long time to get where it needed to be in the ring. And you know, there's I still, I still have a long way to go. I feel like um, but every, like I said, everyone here all of the people that were in my classes were always so good to me and so helpful to me that it was just like, I'm always so forever grateful. And I tell them all the time, probably to the point where they're really annoyed by it.

Rob: Absolutely. And, you know, like you said, like, wrestling has been so good to you. It's been so good to me, as well, you know, I just made these great connections with people. And by the way, the answer is, yes, you should be doing this because you're absolutely killing it. But I digress. You know, it's just been so positive. So, when I hear this stuff, it really breaks my heart. And this is the stuff that I don't see. So, it's really, really crazy. I do want to throw a quote at you. Marissa help me with this one. Was its Linda, who has said it on the show? What’s the quote, Marissa, about the trust in the ring.

Marissa: We have to trust our bodies with these people in the ring, but we can't trust them with our bodies outside the ring.

Jen: Yes, I love that quote so much. You know, and then there's another one that is a good one too, is that, you know, everybody has a mother or a sister or a daughter. And you know, you don't you don't want them you wouldn't want them treated this way. Don't treat somebody else that that woman that you're looking at. That person that you're looking at, is somebody you know, is somebody's sibling; Is somebody whose family care for each other. Like we're such a little, you know, in a way we all you know, we joke around and call each other Carnie’s all the time. But like we are this little Carnie family that puts the show together. And what we do is so magical. It's like I always equate it to raising a barn. Like everybody needs brings their particular skills. And you know, we all do this crazy thing. So that we can put on a show. It's literally like, the fact that human beings can do this and build a ring. Every time there's a show, we build a ring from the ground up. That's amazing. We can come together and do that. We can come together and build a ring; we can come together and trust each other and throw each other around and punch each other in the face. We can do all those things and do them as safely as possible. Why can't we do these other things? I know that we can. And that's the thing that seems silly to me. It's like it's if obviously if we can cooperate in this way, we can also cooperate and the other way.

Rob: Very well said and I guess we touched on this a little bit already. But just any you know, any advice I guess, especially for these, you know, younger up and coming talents.

Jen: I know, it's just really you know, when you're going into wrestling schools, make sure that you're checking out not just the kind of shiny things. Like not just the people that came out of the school, like not how successful, not how many people came out of that school went to WWE. Find out what's going on, like we just added here, you know, we added our trainers, we have it in a female trainer, we added in a Ref. So, we have ADD trainers, like, oh my God, they are everything. And they have also been like, really just amazing to me as Gabby has too. But find out, Are there trainers at that school that you can identify with? You know, are there people that are going to treat you like a human being, and don't give anybody your money. Like, definitely, you know, wrestling training is a lot of hard work for people who are trainers. So, make sure that you are giving money to people, don't take free rides from anyone, because you will pay for it in one way or another. And make sure that you know, like I said, get what you're paying for and give as much into it, you'll be so surprised as what like what you get out of it. And I mean, I would give that advice for anything in life to anyone but particularly for young people, the harder that you work, the more people that you touch, the more you'll get out of it. I tell people all the time that wrestling is my master my master work in life, I bring all my talents together. And I put it into wrestling. And every time I'm in that ring it gives back to me.

Rob: Yeah, I’ll say. That's it for me mercy, you got anything before we get out of here?

Marissa: No, I'm just so happy that you're making such an impact on the Wrestling World. And I don't even think you see the scope of it yet. And if you do, then that's amazing. But if you don't, you are starting a revolution. And I'm so excited to watch. And hopefully other people will catch on and come to you to do the same thing in their organization. So, thank you.

Jen: I would definitely like I said couldn't do it alone, like Gabby Gilbert and the rep they have all stepped up to help me not just to come as trainers and give their knowledge and you know, come to the aid of these students that we already have, and to new students that we hope you'll come and join us. But they've also been great with me helping to give administrative work, structure, class curriculum, so that people can really come here. Young people, old people, any kinds of people can come here and have a comprehensive school experience. We're really excited. You know, like I said, we have our new facilities that we're getting up and running. We're just kind of like crossing our fingers until COVID has passed so that we can get our class numbers back up. But in the meantime, we've got these small classes where we're working on changing the culture, just one person at a time. And it's been it's been really great so far.

Marissa: That's amazing.

Rob: Absolutely. All you guys are going to get signed, by the way, one of the best tag teams on the planet right now. I mean, I'm telling you right now. But anyway, instead of being a major mark here, let's get some shameless promo out of the way. We're all about it. Now we can be on a fan level or on a professional level here. You know, obviously, working with CCW, how can people contact you on a professional level or follow you on a fan level?

Jen: Um, if you want to reach out to this school, you can reach out to CCWtrainers@gmail.com. You can ask us any questions that you have about the school. The trainers will get right back to you. You can also come and check out our school we are located in Blackwood, New Jersey. You can email us for more of that. For me also on a professional level, you can find me on LinkedIn Jen Casale PHR. And you can see all of the fun and fabulous work history there, which is the boring stuff. Or you can also check out my Facebook. You know, I'm Jen Casale, as well on Facebook, so you can check me out there.

Rob: Awesome. Super cool. And Jen, thank you so much. You know, obviously a fan for a long time. But you've definitely earned my respect and just thank you so much for coming on the show. And, you know, just opening up and telling everyone what you had to say. I super appreciate it.

Jen: Thank you. I hope I didn't chew your guy's ear off too much. I appreciate your time as well.

Rob: That's fantastic. And guys, you know, everyone who's listening right now, like I always say stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out. Peace.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!

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Wednesday Jul 29, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: MST Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Ret. Lt. COL. Jeffrey Rector

Wednesday Jul 29, 2020

Tuesday Jul 28, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Thunder Rosa on the Speak Out Movement: with BCP and Thunder Rosa

Tuesday Jul 28, 2020

Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.

Rob: Gentlemen, welcome back to a very special episode of the BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast Connection as we continue to break through the Speak Out movement with my tag team partner multiple time Amazon award-winning Best-Selling Author, my good friend, Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa, what's up over there? How you doing?

Marissa: Hi, I'm great. How are you?

Rob: I'm doing really, really good. You know, all things considered. You know, like we keep saying 2020. But Marissa, You've knocked it out of the park with this one. And I'm super hyped. Super honored right now. This is a big one guys. Right here. I am personally so honored to be speaking with easily one of the best in the world right now. The first ever Mexican born and current NWA Women's World Champion, Miss Thunder Rosa. Miss Thunder Rosa, how are you today?
Thunder Rosa: Thank you.

Marissa: We should add an Applause track.

Rob: Yeah, absolutely. I was going to roll my R’s, but I would really just fail it that miserably. But it really is an honor. Thunder Rosa, thank you so much for a few minutes of your time. First and foremost. 2020 has been crazy. How are you? How's the family? How's everyone making out in this 2020 COVID world right now?

Thunder Rosa: We're doing really well. I mean, we definitely use COVID as a launchpad for a lot of stuff. You know, we're really focused, and as you guys know, we revamped Mission Pro-Wrestling to make it mostly female staff and, and everybody in there because the work, you know, after the whole speak out. So we're working on that. I mean, it is really hard, because I have a tendency to like start things and not really have like, a plan for it or just like, go! Then we just go from there. So yeah, we're working really hard.

Rob: Yeah, it's crazy. You know, I find it as like a creative and a journalist in the in the business like, now really is a good time to focus on our crafts in other ways. But I want to talk about you know, your reaction when we first saw this speak out movement, we've talked to a lot of indie talent. We've talked to a lot of promoters. We're so honored to have you here. When you saw this hashtag trending on Twitter, what was your immediate reaction or thoughts? Were you surprised?

Thunder Rosa: I was not surprised, actually. I was at first, for the first people that were, you know, talking about, I mean, had some I know I knew that person, but I didn't know them to that extent. So and then as soon as I started seeing, like the domino effect and where everybody started speaking now, I was like, I personally was like, I hope somebody, if they're, you know, speaking out on Twitter, I hope somebody goes to the authorities. I know it, you know, it's it's really hard and probably not going to do anything. But at least there's a record for men or women that have been harassed, to use this and take it to the next level. Right? In order for, you know, justice to happen. And unfortunately, not a lot of people did that.

Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's very crazy. And I'll throw it over to Marissa. Marissa is all about breaking through the silence And speaking of somersault, throw it over to you if you have some questions.

Marissa: Sure. So I really appreciate you saying that, you know, giving you're giving your not blessing but giving your you know, I guess permission to encourage women to speak out and men and any survivor to speak out. I think that that's really important to hear, especially from people like you who have a platform and have a name. So have you ever experienced anything throughout your wrestling career that was inappropriate or abusive?

Thunder Rosa: Man, if I was to, like, name some names, and if I was to sing some stuff, you know, it's just like, I would be here all day, have a conversation with you, honestly. I decided to, you know, if, when I have some of the some of these issues to like, deal with and personally, I have a very supportive husband, who is actually has seen most of this stuff online. I've seen a lot of the comments, you know, pictures, all that kind of stuff. And we actually personally talked to some people, you know. But not a lot of people have, you know, the courage to go and say something to somebody in person. To make them stop. I mean, it took me a little while before this happened, but I remember telling my husband like when I first started in my career, man, if this was a regular job, half of these people will be fired already for sexual harassment. But, again, I talked about it before, and this was, we lived in a culture of silence. And, um, and a lot of the girls, you know, spoke out, and some of them were heard, and some of them were victimized again. I mean, they blamed the victim. But for me, it's very important to take action. You know, and especially in cases where some of this stuff were, to the level that they were that they don't, they don't necessarily need to be afraid of doing that, because that's the next step in order to keep people that were multiple offenders, keep them away from doing it again.

Marissa: But don't you think it could possibly, potentially hurt somebody's career to speak out? I mean, there have been cases where, you know, even in Hollywood where women spoke out against Harvey Weinstein years and years before, the #MeToo movement and they were blacklisted. And I'm sure the same thing has happened in the Wrestling World.
Thunder Rosa: I mean, there's a reason why a lot of us didn't say anything before. Before the speak out happened. Because if you say something and you don't have the platform, or you don't have the name, you know, you're gonna get blackballed. You know, so it's like a sort of two edges, right? Is like, even your blamed if you speaking, or blamed if you don’t. And I think some, some people were like, why you're not use your platform, that way that you should? We all decide to take action a different way. You know, and definitely, when I was, like, somebody that I knew that that was, that was part of the abuse, or they receive abuse, like, I definitely reach out to some of them, you know. But some of them are really vulnerable, and they don't want to really talk about it. So I respected that too. You gotta, you know, how they feel. But um, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting topic, and is very sensitive, because you've got to go both ways.

Rob: Of course, you hit it right on the head. And I just wanted to say, like, you know, I do I very much like support the indie talent on the show. That's what it's all about. We tried to put them over, if you will. We've seen, you know, some of these women come out. And I've seen one, saying that she had a story, but she even though all this is going on, she did not feel that she had to share it. And again, there's no pressure there. And then she ended up just walking away from the business right now. Are you seeing like a lot of that on your end? Or are you are you thinking like, this is something that that is going to actually come out the other end very positive?

Thunder Rosa: It could be both ways. I mean, I get some of that locker rooms were very toxic. And like, a lot of the women were kind of like, at the edge, and men too. So I think because of like now, there's not a lot of shows, running, opportunities are sparse. As far as the like, in like, all this that is happening and has been so hurtful, in many ways, like, some people would just rather just something else. You know, because it's just like, I don't know. Like, for some people was traumatizing. Because they, they suffered from some of this abuse and harassment, and some of these, you know, being blackballed and stuff like that. So then is reading continue to read the stories and reread them? It was it was, it was a lot. It was a lot.

Rob: So, you know, we're working a lot with this indie talent. You know, we talk about, you know, obviously, before this COVID stuff, but when we had these conventions, where we had these indie shows where we have, you know, the up and coming talent, come pick up the bigger name talent from the airport, or we talk about the talent and these indie shows where they have to share a locker room. You're kind of your thoughts on that, Thunder Rosa.

Thunder Rosa: Well, it happened and it shouldn't ever happen. And we should have said something. But now, given the fact that this, this all happened, and we need to be different, and we need to be better. The last show that I was in, there was no locker room for the girls. What I said, and I and I yell at the guys, too. I said, Don't you ever let another woman change in front of you. It's all our responsibility. And I'm not talking about just women. But you guys do to take care of the girls. A lot of these girls are new, so they feel afraid of like speaking up. But you know what, I've been in the business for six years. I'm a business owner. I'm a wrestler, I'm a pro-MMA fighter. I'm a mother. I'm a wife. You know, I, myself have been through this too. I am not gonna let another girl to change in front of all of us anymore if we get a little tiny place for us to be to have privacy. So be it. But I also want to blame the guys for allowing this to happen too. Because they're also responsible. This is why I had the conversation and I said to everybody is like you guys are also responsible. You guys have to be brothers keepers. We're all brothers here. There's no more BS of like, “Oh, no, no, it’s just business…” None. None of that. This should never happen in the first place.

Marissa: Thunder Rosa, for President 2020

Rob: I know, I literally like clapping my hands over here don't mess with her.

Thunder Rosa: A lot of the times I was afraid to say something. Even like, when like, the promoter didn’t give me my money or something. To like, be sensitive. I can't be sensitive, you know? It's my body. It’s my is my brand. It's everything, you know? I'm not perfect, I'm not a role model. I just care for other people. And that's it. If you don't care for other people fine. But be ready for another speak out movement to happen. Because if we continue to have this mentality, this is going to continue to happen no matter what. You know. So that's why I'm like right now, I'm all about action. You have to put your money where your mouth is, or whatever that is. It's like, if I say, I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do something. And again, if I'm in a locker room, with women, especially in the Indies, because the locker rooms are very small, I will demand for a place. And I'm not talking about, send me to the bathroom, where everybody's going to be using the bathroom, they're going to be interrupting me. I'm asking for a little place and where I can change, and the others girls can change without being bothered by the guys or being like looked at, or vice versa.

Marissa: Right. We've been hearing a lot from previous interviews about how people who are being accused of sexual harassment sexual assault are still being booked. And when it's brought up to promoters about well, why are you booking them? They've been accused, they say, “Well, what do you want us to do not book them?” So what do you think about that?

Thunder Rosa: That's the reason why, for me, it's super important that I mentioned at the beginning of the show, that you have to press charges, and, you know, legal actions to be taken. Because when there is an accusation, the people are gonna say, well it’s just an accusation. It's that he said, she said. And that's how they defend themselves. But then there's actually multiple cases and where the girls can go after this person or this other person, it's a different story.

Marissa: Yeah. As a business owner, and a person who works in wrestling as a business owner, what do you think that promoters and the organizations can do to create the safer environments for their, for the wrestlers and for their talent?

Thunder Rosa: Well, you know, there is an organization that has been created in Los Angeles that is just focusing on this specific aspect, which is sexual harassment, HR and everything. And I don't think that this has ever happened before. It’s the wrestling coalition, and I will send you guys a link. She's been working super hard. And she's working with other wrestlers, female and male wrestlers. And we're are with me reaching out to other schools, and organizations, wrestling organizations to like, educate people about this aspect. Because this is a serious thing. And because there's no platform created for us, we're independent director like us is really difficult to follow through, and to have an investigation. Like in other regular jobs where, there's sexual harassment, the person gets suspended, and, you know, there's an investigation and whatever happens, happens. And we have to also remember, because there’s only an accusation, you cannot be proven guilty until you're found guilty. Which again, that's, for me is so important. And I've talked many times with some of my friends, that it's important that you need to seek legal action. Because as you guys can see, there was a video, and the person said very clearly, there was no legal action taken, so I can speak now. And you're blaming the victim. And I'm just like, I was blown away, I was like, wow, nobody went and actually pressed charges? Especially after having all this proof that it was real. So it's like, I mean, because we don't have the HR and we don't have like somebody that can guide you through it. Because it's painful. It's a pain in the butt. It's like nobody wants to do it and nobody wants to spend money on lawyers. But it’s necessary. It’s necessary.

Marissa: You don't think it falls on the organization to protect people. Like to, if there's an accusation, if not do an investigation, at least suspend or avoid booking somebody for the accusation.

Thunder Rosa: I mean, some people they don't really care. Business is business. Remember, this is still a lot of people in the business that are still out there, and they've done some shady stuff, just because people haven't said anything. They're still running the stuff. You know? And nobody's saying anything about it. And nobody will say anything about it, because there's a lot of people with a lot of power.

Marissa: I think it's kind of like a vicious cycle, if you think about it. So, they abuse somebody, and that person doesn't speak up so they're allowed to continue to abuse, and abuse, and abuse. But if someone does speak up and nothing happens, then that person who's been abusing feels like on top of the world. Like they're unstoppable. Nobody can touch them. So it's almost encouragement to keep abusing. So I feel like, although I agree with what you're saying: Business is business, there are so many people out there that aren't abusive pieces of shit. why don't we give them the booking instead of, you know, well, it's a he said, she said.

Thunder Rosa: You know, that but everybody, every organization does business differently. Like, for example, me. If I know, I know, it's true, and I've seen it, and I, you know, my friends told me and I know it everything. I know that person will never work with us. Just period. But again, everybody has a different set of values, everybody has a different perspective of things, you know, and I see what you're saying, like, I saw one of the promoters and they were like, Hey, why are you booking this person? This person has like, a long list of bad behavior, you know? And I saw.

Rob: Absolutely, I you know, I see that over here in the shows, you know, where sometimes we're lucky enough to have, like, you know, drive in shows, you know, equivalent to like a drive in theater of wrestling shows or whatever. And every once in a while I'm running an interview or something, and someone will chime in with a comment about somebody or something associated with somebody. So again, it's very, you know, it's very crazy. He's saying, but Thunder Rosa, telling it like it is. And Marissa, you know, obviously, I see where you're coming from as well obviously, Marissa being like, as we like to say a survivor, a champion here on this show. But I want to throw this quote at you Thunder Rosa. Marissa, helped me out, I always botch the quotes. But they say in the ring, you know, you guys trust each other. Behind the curtain. You guys are brothers and sisters, I guess this is really a quote. But uh, you know, I guess the quote was, you know, “We can we can trust each other to catch each other in the ring, but we can't trust each other outside of the ring.” Your thoughts on that?

Thunder Rosa: It's the entertainment business. If this was a regular job, you think that people act certain way, and they end up being a different way. In where like they're backstabbers. They, you know, they say they have your best interest, which is BS. And they go. And when it’s their time, they go after you, one way or another. This is a perfect example of things. And it saddens me terribly. Because this is not a way to do business, and to work. There's nothing worse than you work at a place, and then you want to try to go to a different place, but you can't because you're blackballed. You can’t because somebody used their power to try to hinder you. But nothing is better and more empowering than when you are you, and you decide to take action, and take your life in your own matters and do things the right way. And show people that whatever is being said, is not true. Especially when you’re a victim of harassment. So, man, it's just this for me, this is such a sensitive topic. And that's why I say like, some people, honestly, Marissa, they don't care. They really don't care.

Marissa: And it's disgusting to me. And you can see it truly in the fans as well. And I'm not by any means bashing wrestling fans. But we've had people on the show that talk about how fans are so loyal to the people that they grow up watching, and so loyal to the wrestlers that they follow, that anyone that comes out and makes an accusation gets bashed on social media. And that's so scary for people. You know, like you said, it's such a sensitive topic, and people speaking their truth and speaking out about their story are being so vulnerable, that then to be victim blamed and victimized by fans of the person they've accused, is so traumatizing. It's probably almost as traumatizing as the actual incident.

Thunder Rosa: But when you speak out, that's part of what the consequences are. And you have to be aware, when this happens, that this is going to happen. Especially if you're a part of an entertainment business. And we saw when the #MeToo. All those women who spoke out, they were also bashed. I read a lot of these books a couple years ago, and he was like the women and men were scared because they go after them. Everything. And they tried to go, and they tried to dig dirt, and they tried to do a bunch of stuff, you know, which is not cool either. But we have to be mindful when you're going to speak your truth, this was, this is going to happen, and you have to be ready. But you also have to be ready to take action. To like, take it to the next level. I mean, that's why it was so powerful for the #MeToo movement with all these women from Hollywood. They were able to take action, and they put him in jail. Because there were so many stories, and all of them were very similar. The same with Bill Cosby. With all these women spoke out after 20-30 years, they all took him out of society. So he was not being, you know, booked to do a show and booked to do this, and do that. But that is what is necessary sometimes. Because otherwise, Marissa, we’re going to go back to people not caring about the allegations and continuing to book these people.

Marissa: Right. So that's what I want to avoid. You said that there was a coalition? Is the person collecting stories for lack of a better term in order to advocate for people? Or is that just like, like a survivor resource?

Thunder Rosa: No, it's more of creating a platform and where if this incidents happen in schools, or whatever else, there's actually somebody who can actually do an investigation. And there is like, they're creating policies that can be used in different promotions, schools, and they can be implemented too, in case of these situations happening. So it can’t continue to hurt people. So if like, somebody goes and does an allegation, there is an investigation right away. Or there should be an investigation right away. So that's what we're trying to implement. Again, this organization is in its infancy, but she's working very hard. And she's been working with attorneys and HR specialists from all over the country. So like I said, I'll pass you the information if you want to be part of it. Because I think this is very, very important. Because this is the wrestling. Women in professional wrestling. This is called professional wrestling for a reason, right? So this should be taken as professional wrestling. As a profession. We're professionals. Right? I mean, I always see it that way. You know, but it's like, like you were saying, like, you can’t trust people in the back. Like you have to, that's why we have to be very mindful of who we associate ourselves with. Because then later on, they can bite us in the butt. Even when we don't have nothing to do, just because we were friends.

Rob: You know, very, very well said, the business has been so positive to me, you know, I've just made so many like friends and connections and obviously, Thunder Rosa, you have had such just such a decorated career so far. You've had so many accomplishments, I you know, I wish we were here talking about our dream opponents and you know, dream tag team partners and all this stuff. But you know, obviously, we're talking about a very serious topic. Does this kind of, like, obviously it sours everything, but what's kind of your positive level on the business versus the negativity? Like what's, what's your feeling right now?

Thunder Rosa: Man, for me, professional wrestling has brought a lot of happiness, And a lot of a lot of my dreams came true because of professional wrestling, because of how much dedication and passion I have to this. I mean, it's a very difficult business to be in. It’s mainly dominated by men, white men. So the odds of a person color to like, be decorated and like, make it big, it's, it's hard. It's very, very hard and you go through a lot of, you eat a lot of shit. So excuse my language. But you have to learn how to navigate and how to be smart and how to like, you know, do what's best for you. And without stepping on other people's backs, or backstabbing other people, that's like my number one thing. I don't like doing that, just to get ahead. And a lot of my veterans and will be like, you're in the wrong business, because you're such a good person. But I'm not going to put my values and my morals on the side just because I want to get something. I'm gonna get it because of my merit. Because I will worked hard for it. Because I bled for it. Because I sweat for it. Because I worked so hard. And there's no denial that I deserve it. So I think professional wrestling has taught me to be tough, to have tough skin, and I have no limits. I never had limits, but I think this one has taught me even more to be limitless. The only limits that I have and the ones that I set for myself. And that's it. Like nobody else can tell me Otherwise.

Marissa: I wish more people had that mindset.

Rob: Yeah, clapping my hands over here right now. Very, very well said. And you’re such a bad ass, and really telling it like it is. I do want to be respectful of your time, Thunder Rosa, and thank you again so much for a few minutes. I did want to ask you this. You know a lot of times you mentioned your husband, some of your guys endeavors. You guys make me believe in love again. But I did want to talk about, I believe its Mission Pro Wrestling. I see you guys posted some stuff, I think fans can request matches and all that stuff. You know, I just saw Holidead — a couple days ago at a drive-in show here in Jersey. She was fantastic in person. But not about shameless promo. We'll get to that later. I did want to ask you, you did mention earlier in the interview about kind of taking on an all female roster, and all female management. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Thunder Rosa: It's been a heck of a roller coaster. Right after the Speak Out happened, my husband's like, “Well, I mean, you go and I should start running an all female promotion.” And I'm like, Man, I'm not ready. And he's like, no, it's time. Oh, man, it's gonna be hard. So, you know. We try our best to do as much to fulfill our older roles with females. From the merch table, to the tickets. Our Booker's a female, I'm the owner. Sound, commentary, everything. Like we want women production. The hardest thing to find is women that are in production. So that's where I come here. And I'm probably not going to wrestle very much, because I want to make sure that I learned production, and I'm able to like run things in the back. But that's the most difficult part because I don't feel that there is enough women in the production area. And that's one of the most important parts of professional wrestling, because it's being professional wrestling is being put on YouTube is being put all over the world. But you need somebody to produce that and to produce it well. So that's been very challenging. And I've been like trying to talk to some of the girls into like, “Hey, are you interested in learning more about how to like, record a match? And how to like edit a match and how to do this stuff.” And they're like, “Nah, I just really want to wrestle.” And I'm just thinking in my head, recording, editing, and learning how to do all this things will take you even further because you can use it for your YouTube, you can use for your Patreon. If you're into OnlyFans, you can use that. So that's like other sources of income. So it's like changing the mindset of just being a wrestler and entertainer to like being a wholesome business person. It is very difficult. And that's what I want to do with Mission Pro Wrestling — is like not only allow and give a platform for women to wrestle and entertain people, but also to learn other ways to like, become their own businesses, and business owners. Which is owning their own brand, and, and being able to make money with wrestling. Which is one of the hardest things to do and be successful at it.

Marissa: As far as the production elements go, I have a couple female friends that I think would really benefit from working with you just because of your like badass-ery and your power. And if you’d like I can refer them to you or connect them to you and see if they are people that you'd like to work with.

Thunder Rosa: Yeah, if like, especially if they're like, I don't know if they live, where do you live? Marissa?

Marissa: I'm in Chicago, but they're all over the place.

Thunder Rosa: Yeah, if they're like closer to Texas, it will be best. Again, we're just starting. And I'm like, seriously trying to do this with my team as like, self sufficient as possible, because we want to make sure that you know, we get our equipment. But we want to make sure that we're able to, in the future have like bad ass production, and everything's owned by us. And we're like running that way. I mean, yes, we'll definitely like to get some help for the future shows.

Marissa: Okay, I'll connect you to a couple people.

Thunder Rosa: Awesome.

Rob: Love it. Love it. You guys are killing it. Last question for me, Thunder Rosa. And again, thank you so, so much for a few minutes of your time. I do like to end things on a positive note, if you don't mind my asking. We do have a lot, a lot of indie talent on the show. So kind of a two parter here, tying it to what we've been talking about earlier. Any advice you would have for them, you know, to kind of move forward safely. And then if you wouldn't mind some advice for them creatively or trying to get over or move forward in the business.

Thunder Rosa: I think it's like, people need to stop focusing so much on like, the, like, the end goal. Which is it could be you know, AEW, WWE, all that stuff, and just really enjoy the journey. Like it took me years for me to like, be like, Okay, I'm enjoying what I'm doing. It was just go. And then after I achieved so much, I'm like, What am I doing? And that's when we were missing it, or like we're comparing ourselves to other people are more successful than us. I started with us. Our journey is completely different than the other persons journey. So you just have to enjoy the trials and tribulations that you will go through. And when you stop enjoying it, you need to stop doing it. Like don't make everybody miserable in the locker room and be a sour puss. Fans give us so much, so much, that you have no clue. Like so many of my fans, right now, I can tell you, they have given my family and me so much joy, and they have helped me create so many great memories, that if I would have done it, any other way, I don't think I would have been able to achieve it otherwise. So it is so important that you are positive. And you are that you actually give something to this to this business, you know, because at the end of the day, when you die, like you're gonna take everything. All the knowledge and everything else you have is going to be for nothing. So for me, that's why, maybe because I was a social worker before, for me, it's important to give, to be generous and to be to be genuine. Because that's gonna take you a lot further than just being selfish.

Rob: Wow, I'm just gonna echo when Marissa said Thunder Rosa, for president, Marissa: you got anything else before we get out of here.

Marissa: I just, if you wouldn't mind giving just like one piece of advice to any up and comer who might face some sort of abuse or harassment. Or, veteran wrestlers who have faced — what’s like one piece of advice you'd give them.

Thunder Rosa: I will say that, if you have been harassed before in any way shape, or form, that if you have somebody you trust really well like either veteran, a friend or whatever, to help you talk to the other person and really be like, you need to stop. It's so important. It's so important to tell them to stop. And if they don't stop, you need to like gather all your information, all this stuff that you have, and really take action. Because it's so important other than this people because some people are sick, they're really sick, and they need to be taken out. And I'm not talking about just the business. They need. So sick. And they've done it so many times of so many different people. And, and that's very, very important. Because they, they, they will continue to do it. They don't do it to you, they're going to jump to the next person, they're gonna go to the next person. And it's really sad, because some people are so passionate about pro-wrestling, that when this happened, like their passion, the love and everything is gone. And it just takes everything away. And it takes so long for them to like rebuild and continue. Because not everybody's strong. You know, not everybody can just keep going and just like brush it off. But that's so important. And believe me, so empowering. I mean, so I mean, I'm telling me, it made me really nervous when I have to like face on people and be like, hey, whatever you're saying, I know you're gonna say it's not true, but I know is true, you need to stop right now. Immediately. Or you will suffer other consequences, because I'm not playing. Especially, a lot of our LGBTQ people, like they suffer from a lot of that stuff. And they think that some people would think is funny when they're being harassed like that. It's not funny. It's not funny at all.

Rob: Thank you for saying that. Very, very well said. And Thunder Rosa, like I said, I do want to end this on a positive note, you know, hopefully next time we talk to you, you know, we're talking about goals and all sorts of other stuff in the world to be back to normal. But I am all about the shameless promo here. So please, you know, I saw you just put up some pictures on your website. You know, I'm definitely gonna look into that. But tell us where everyone can follow on social media, your website and all your endeavors coming up.

Thunder Rosa: So you guys can find me at ThunderRosa22@gmail.com if you want to send me an email. But you can find me at ThunderRosa.net. All my social media is linked to there. I also have my YouTube page and where it's monetized. So every time I do live feeds, or I put a new video I usually am in the chat so you guys can donate money to the cause. You know, this is how I make a living. Because I'm not wrestling very much. Future plans. I feel like I'm you know, floating some stuff in there, but we're going 100% of admission for wrestling — We're thanks support as many women as possible. And this is not your typical BS small promotion. We're trying we will make it as big as possible. We have a lot of connections and we want to make sure those who work hard and deserve it, get those opportunities just like I did. Somebody was able to give me those opportunities or just offer those opportunities and just take over the world. We want good people to take over professional wrestling. Good, strong, women to take over professionalism.

Marissa: Make Professional Wrestling Safe Again.

Rob: There it is. I love it. It's not a Thunder Rosa Thank you so much. You know obviously you fan for a long time but more importantly we appreciate you all Opening up, you certainly have my respect and continued success moving forward. Thank you so much for your time.

Thunder Rosa: No, thank you guys for having me. Appreciate

Rob: All right guys, as always say here, stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out peace.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!

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Monday Jul 27, 2020

Healing From Emotional Abuse: What Does A Healthy Relationship Look Like? : With Makayla McNeil of The Butterfly Effect

Monday Jul 27, 2020