Healing From Emotional Abuse: Female Wrestlers and Sexual Harassment: with BCP and Risa Pappas

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.

 

Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special tag team edition of the BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast Connection. It looks like we’ve got ourselves a little mini-series here, you know. We're talking about the #SpeakingOutMovement going on right now on social media in the Wrestling World, something that really needs to be talked about. We're having some open and honest discussions. And of course, I'd like to welcome to the show my tag team partner, the good sister and multiple time Amazon best-selling, award-winning author, Miss Marissa F. Cohen, what's up Miss Marissa?

 

Marissa: Hey, how are you?

 

Rob: Doing well, all things considered in this 2020 we're doing okay, how about you?

 

Marissa: Oh, no, I totally hear that. And I'm super excited. That #SpeakingOut is blowing up. I mean, like, this is this is insane. It's all you see on Twitter. It's all you see all over social media, which is fantastic. I'm not happy it happens. But I'm happy that people are finally speaking about it. That is so important.

 

Rob: Yeah, I think that's what we need to do. And I think what did you call it #BreakingThroughtheSpeakingOutMovement, is that we're calling this?

 

Marissa: I think it is Breaking Through the #SpeakingOutMovement.

 

Rob: That’s it. See, this is why you're here. I can do the wrestling stuff, though. So, this is a this is an awesome tag team. And before he gives you the hot tag, I think we'll introduce our guest at this time. I’m super excited for this one, someone who is super passionate about the business and what's going on in it right now.  This is long overdue. But please welcome back to the show. Working with the likes of WSU super crazy wrestling and modern vintage ring announcer commentator and all-time superstar Miss Risa Pappas. Risa, what's up? How are you?

 

Risa: Oh, I'm so glad to be back talking to you. And Marissa, I'm really excited to talk to you because I know that you have a ton of insights into this area in general. So, I'm hoping that we can kind of bring that expertise in with the wrestling expertise and hopefully, bring some things to light that make click with some people. And maybe there's some takeaways I'm cautiously hopeful that people can learn from all of this. So, I'm really happy to talk about it.

 

Rob: Yeah, thank you so much for a few minutes. And really quick just to get a little background on you. For people who don't know yet, Risa. Tells us a little bit about your work in the business and then also outside of the ring as well.

 

Risa: Yeah, so I'm in the business I do Ring announcing for super crazy pro wrestling for WSU. I used to work for another organization called SWF, which I don't know if that exists anymore. But I've been around for a little bit as a ring announcer. I've done commentary for a couple of promotions as well. And I was supposed to have a show this past weekend, and then ended up getting cancelled at the last minute. So, like its wrestling is restarting, it's in fits and starts that it's coming back. But I hope to be back on that circuit again soon doing what I love, because I really do love it. And in terms of what I do the rest of the time. I've kind of been interested in women's issues, and feminism and all that kind of stuff. Because obviously I have a good reason to be interested in it. So, I've been kind of a you know, an amateur scholar researcher of sorts for these issues for a really long time. But also, my job, my you know, shoot job, my day job is for a non-profit focused on women's workplace inclusion and Equity, and Diversity and all those good things. And so, we you know, it's my day to day thinking about this kind of thing. And so, when this #SpeakingOutMovement started, I was kind of like, thank God. Because from my perspective I've been, every time I would go to a show, I'm noticing all these things And I'm like, well, that's not cool. That's not cool. And that's kind of wrong, but I'm not going to say anything because everybody else seems okay with it. And I don't want to immediately alienate myself. And I think that's kind of the experience that a ton of women in this business have had. So, I'm hardly you know, it's not very boohoo me like this is this is very common of an experience to have. But as much as it's really terrible, but all of these people have experienced these terrible incidents of harassment, outright assault, stalking, manipulation, coercion, all that kind of terrible stuff. At the same time, this conversation is like 30-40 years overdue. So I'm glad we're having it, even though it's very late.

 

Rob: Yeah, man, so many things I want to ask you so I'll start with this. You mentioned you know, women are not just saying women, you know, it does it does go both ways. You know, obviously I think it is amazing, majority of women that we're seeing speaking out right now. We also, you know, also saw Keith Lee talking about a situation where he was, I guess, drugged in a drink, he woke up in the hotel room. So, it's really crazy right now, but you talk about people not saying anything. Do you think that is because and I think Linda had said on our last podcast, they would be viewed at as difficult to work with or not playing the game or paying their dues, you kind of think that's part of the equation?

 

Risa: Yeah, so you've touched on a couple of things there that I think are big causes of this problem. And I really, you know, Daisy Deville — Linda, she has way more years in this business than I do. And I think she spoke really well about some of the general day to day experiences that women have. I haven't been here long enough, I'm very lucky. I've never really had to deal with the majority of the things that I've been hearing about. I've had, you know, like low-level sexual harassment. Like people saying inappropriate things to me, people pulling me into a hug that I was not trying to have with them. That's really kind of been the extent of my experience. But I'm also way older, I'm not a trainee, I'm not put under any pressure, like I can just leave. And it doesn't affect me at all. Like I would rather be doing it. But if that's the situation that I walk into, and I'm not comfortable, I'm just going to leave. I'm not trying to make this my career. This isn't my dream. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not paying $1000s to a training school, but a lot of these wrestlers are. And when you're putting that kind of situation, why would you want to speak out against people who are totally showing you by accepting that behavior that is normal, and that you should expect it? So, it's counterintuitive for you to speak up. So, there's been a lot of really great supportive statements that people have been making. But there's been just as many people making the basically like, "well, you were asking for it" argument. Which is really toxic and crappy. But, you know, that's pretty obvious. But I think that there's, the issue is that there's a huge disconnect, I think, between those little things, and then full-on outright assaults, and things like that happening. That's what I feel, personally, is the biggest problem is that there is a huge disconnect between those tiny individual behaviors that are tolerated, and no one nips them in the bud. And then that's what causes that culture of, "Well, we didn't say anything before, we're not going to say anything now.” And then it gets worse, and then it gets worse, and then it gets worse. And so, I think that has to do with a lot of things. And it creates a toxic culture, but it creates that culture of silence. And that's what really, that's why the hashtag speaking out thing like, there's not it's not it's not a coincidence that it's called that it's the fact that nobody was saying anything. And now we've reached this tipping point that people can't not say anything. So, I want to kind of just rattle off a quick list if that's okay.

 

Rob: That’s why you're here.

 

Risa: Yeah, I've been thinking about this, like the things that I think contribute to this perfect storm of toxicity in wrestling. And one of those things is assumption of shared knowledge. So, I see something happened in the locker room, I assume that other people have seen this behavior from this person before. And that by no one having checked this person already, that they know about it, and are choosing to do nothing. So now I know that if that's okay with them, then I'm not safe and that's obviously very terrible. But there's kind of this assumption in the locker room that if one person saw it, it's in the locker room, everybody could have seen it and that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of things that can happen really quickly, really quietly, that not everybody was privy to, because everybody's in their own world, when they're in a locker room. They're talking about how their, how their matches going to go, or they're just BSing with their friends, or they're on the phone or whatever it is. So, I think that people kind of make this mistake of assuming that because they saw it, other people must have seen it, and someone else is going to handle it. That's not true. The huge factor, obviously, is a total lack of structure and a total lack of oversight. I think what a lot of people have done, because WWE is the pinnacle, the biggest, the ultimate, I think that people have tried in their individual indie wrestling promotions to model off of WWE. But they also don't have the money that WWE has. So, they're concerned with making money the way WWE has. They're not concerned with all the huge amount of infrastructure that WWE has. And I'm not saying the WWE is doing a great job. They're doing one of their setting the worst example like they are not. They're not setting goalposts, that anybody should be going for. The only goalposts I think is probably capital, like how much money that they're making. That's the only thing that people should be applauding them for. And you can make the argument that they're making the majority of their money, you know, by terrible means, such as not providing insurance for their employees and other underhanded crappy tactics. So, there's no structure of any kind, like there's no human resources. There's colloquially, the there colloquially, there's a term called locker room leader. And that's a person who your kind of who kind of steps up and takes charge of a locker room at any given time, and, you know, kind of lays down the law. I don't usually see that person. In my in my time, and I haven't been in like a billion locker rooms or anything. But in the time that I've been around, there hasn't been that person. I've never really seen someone step up and take charge. I've rarely seen people be like, okay, pre-show meeting. And even then, when there's a pre show meeting, they're not talking about like, "Hey, if you feel uncomfortable…,” like no one has ever said that to me. No one has ever asked me if there was someone that I was uncomfortable working with. No one has ever asked me if there was something I was uncomfortable doing. It's always been me having to assert myself and say, I'm not comfortable with that. So, they're not asking these questions, because they don't know that they should be because they haven't, they haven't dealt with any kind of actual structure. They're just doing this very indie, very grunge, very punk, very garage, which is scrappy, and under-doggy and cute as a story. But realistically, it's like you're dealing with human beings, who can get hurt in multiple ways. You got to be a little bit smarter than that. And there is no precedent set for that. You're either in WWE, where it's an actual Corporation, or you're working out of somebody's house. And you know, booking a venue at a fire hall. It's not the same thing at all. Yeah, there's also the issue of paying your dues. I'm sure you've heard that. It's very specific to wrestling, paying your dues. And the problem with paying your dues combined with the lack of any kind of oversight, the lack of somebody being in charge of handling people, is that paying your dues can be applied to anything. Most people think of it as like, “well, you have to set up and take down the ring, you're paying your dues.” Yeah. You know, I've set up and taken down the ring before I'm a ring announcer theoretically, that's not my job. I've done it though, because we're all putting on a show together, you know, step up and help out. And there's nothing wrong with that, like, can do attitude be a team player. But paying your dues can involve hazing. Paying your dues can involve coercion, paying your dues can involve just, you know, someone just treating you like garbage. It's never happened to me. But some of the stories that I've been reading are horrifying. So there's that and then there's the idea of the; there's this kind of general, I don't even know how to say this. And maybe you guys will be familiar with this. But like the, “Chick who can hang,” you know what I'm saying? Like the girl who is like a tomboy and hangs out with guys. And she's a girl, you know, but like, she rolls with us like she's cool. And that woman, like just the general being in the minority all the time. There are so few women's only wrestling organizations in this country. So, few of them, there's like four. And so in the majority of locker rooms, there’s, as Linda was saying I heard her mention like, yeah, there's probably like four to six women in each show. Like, that's a tiny number of women. So, we're not going to make a big deal about the fact that you didn't give us our locker room. We're not going to make a big deal about that, Because then we're, as you said, “Difficult to work with,” and you don't want to hear that. So, this this whole mentality of like, Yeah, well, she's like one of us and whatever and then then its kind of becomes like, well, if you're really cool, and this is not anything that anybody's actually saying, because then it would sound like an 80s High School movie, bad guy. But like you know what I'm saying like, no one's coming out and saying like, well, if you're one of us, then you'll go do this. Like it's not it's not so overt but that's the thinking. There are things that men and others think about that they don't know that they're thinking about. And then its kind of becomes like a “prove yourself” kind of mentality. Then all of a sudden, the chick of the group has to pay more dues harder than everybody else. She's singled out and you can you can make the argument like some people have said like, Oh, well, we don't treat women any differently. And that's stupid. You should be treating them differently. You should absolutely be treating them differently. You should be taking special considerations, because women are not men. I don't I don't know that that's breaking news or anything, but apparently to some people it is. Women are not men, you need to give women the room locker, you need to protect women from men, because as we've seen in shocking and overwhelming numbers, they're being victimized. And it's obviously you know, I'm not saying that it's all men And I'm not saying that, you know, women are the only victims. Not at all. I'm anecdotally from my own experience, though, this is what I'm seeing. And I want to Marissa are you, are you familiar with the pyramid of sexual violence?

 

Marissa: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by pyramid. But if you start to elaborate, probably pretty familiar.

 

Risa: So, if you like Google it, there's like 30 different versions of it online. I was looking for them trying to be like, well, which one's the one that says the most things I like. What is it basically kind of this pyramid showing that at the very bottom of the base of sexual violence, it starts with attitudes and beliefs that people have. Like slut shaming, and bragging about having had sex with somebody, and like locker room talk that famous locker room talk, and then its kind of goes on from there. And suddenly, it becomes normal to call a woman or comment on her body when she didn't ask you to. Or follow a woman around, or like, stalk them on social media. So then, and then it escalates from there. And then it suddenly becomes like actual coercion or like what happened to Keith Lee, like drugging, being drugged and groping someone without their consent. And then it gets worse and worse and worse from there. And there is a huge disconnect from just making comments, or like sharing names that call women bitches or whatever. Like there's a complete disconnect from that general attitude problem to these horrible accounts that we're hearing now in the speaking out movement. So, there's, Men don't seem to understand that when they're sharing harmful memes or talking crap when a woman or posting a picture of her and talking about her appearance like that is normalization, that's setting the stage for further violence to be enacted on women and other people. And that's, I think, kind of the biggest problem because wrestlers are on social media 24 hours a day, talking shit. It's their favorite thing to do when they're not wrestling. Any of them will tell you that and if they won't, they're a liar. Because it's part of it. But listen, there's a good reason for it. I'm not saying that, like they're all just chatty Cathy's, like, there's a really good reason for it. They have a lot of time, sometimes between shows where they're setting up angles. So, they'll use social media to further storylines, which is really a brilliant use of social media. However, there's also people who think well, because like, 20, people know who I am, I can say whatever I want all the time, and people won't really want to know what my opinion is, which is narcissistic and silly. But every time they like retweet or share something that's rude to women, I'm like, they have no idea. They think that they're just like, “Oh, women be like that sometimes.” Like, that's what they think they're doing. And it's so easy to do it. It's instantaneous. Yeah, I agree with that share. And they're not understanding that that's perpetuating more of what eventually becomes actual violence toward women. And I mean, good.

Marissa: No, sorry. I just want to say that first. First and foremost, I love listening to you talk I can listen to you talk about this all day. You're just like, very..

Risa: I’m sorry, I've been going on and on and on. I'm so sorry.

 

Marissa: I'm not. I'm not saying that at all. Like, I'm actually just sitting here taking a ton of notes on everything you're saying. I want to address the pyramid really, really quick, though. I refer to that as a staircase, because it's all about pushing boundaries, right? So, if you're validated at the very lowest level, you're going to take a step forward and push a boundary. It's human nature, but abusers do it in a really awful way. So, like you were saying, you know, putting something on social media and getting 100 likes on it, and then getting a couple shares, whether or not you have a bunch of comments that are like, wow, that was a really horrible thing to say or like, you should stop saying shit like that. Those people are easy to write off because the other 100 people that liked it are validating that thought. So, then it gets further and further and further and that's how it keeps progressing. And it's the same people that like you said that start with making derogatory comments towards women or towards people. And then you know, start sharing other things that are a little bit more explicit, little by little, they're pushing that boundary to see what they can get away with until they're, you know, drugging somebody or raping somebody or abusing somebody or making awful humiliating comments in locker rooms because there's no protection in there. Like it's all, I don't consider that a pyramid. I consider that a staircase, because you can always go back down the staircase. You know what I mean?

 

Risa: Yes, somebody checks you and goes, Hey, that's not cool, man. And then you're knocked back a peg. And then it's like, oh, well, then I'll just go back to sharing crappy news.

 

Marissa: Exactly, exactly.

 

Risa: And then eventually, I'll push it again. And maybe this time, somebody will not feel like shutting me down because it's awkward, or whatever. And now I've gotten a step further. Now I've gotten away with more. And now I'm setting the stage to escalate further.

 

Marissa: Exactly. And it's a disgusting, it's a disgusting cycle, right? So, if, you're validated by, if I put something awful online, and I'm validated by 20 people that I respect, but told, you know that what I put was inappropriate by 100 people that I don't respect, I'm still going to follow the validation bias.

 

Risa: Absolutely, why wouldn't you, you want to hear good things about yourself, you want to be told that you're doing the right thing. So, you're only going to listen to those people, you're not going to want to listen to your critics. They become quote, unquote, haters. And I don't pay attention to haters.

 

Marissa: Exactly. And it creates a culture of silence, like you said before, too, you know. If I'm putting something awful online, and it's about you, let's say I would never do that, because I think you're super cool And I love your Facebook posts. But let's say I put something awful online about you. And you don't say anything. And other people don't say anything it like perpetuates that thought of, “Okay, well, I can keep getting away with this.” And it just gets worse and worse.

 

Risa: And that's, I think, kind of the biggest thing and to me, and I think to a lot of other women, or people in the LGBTQ community who have to deal with this kind of crap day in and day out. It's one, like I have really far-reaching vision, when I see someone saying, Well, you know, boys will be boys and making that excuse. I see the end; I see how far it can possibly go from there. I see it going to, well, eventually that person might murder somebody. Because it's not a stretch for me. That’s seeing the inevitable end, when you're allowed to take that kind of attitude and spin it into an actual physical expression of violence. Like it's, you know, what is the expression that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Like, where do you think that these people come from? They don't just have like a switch that gets flipped one day, and suddenly they think raping someone's okay. That's not how that happens. It happens by starting out, saying really gross crap to people on the internet in anonymity, because you can get away with saying whatever you want on the internet, because our laws in this country have like zero accountability for that. And then it gets worse and worse and worse from there. And I think men don't have that perspective. Men are really short sighted about it, they'll just take that one thing that they said and be like, “Well, what I said wasn't even that big of a deal.” And maybe it's not. But is it possible that this isn't the only time that you've shared a meme like this? Or set a thing like this? Is it possible that this is one thing in a long line of you talking trash on women and normalizing women as the enemy of men? Oh, well, you know, men are sometimes rude you know about women, sometimes they can be bitches or sometimes they can lie and sometimes they're manipulative. And it's like, your personal life shouldn't be you shouldn't create the ability for you to make such sweeping generalizations about women. No one's asking you about your personal life and it's called personal for a reason. Like keep it to yourself, and keep that perspective to yourself. Don't perpetuate it, even if you have it. Like we've all been hurt by someone. Everybody's been hurt by someone. That's not an excuse to go out. And try to say that all women are awful because you got cheated on. It's not you don't you don't get to make that assessment. I think if anything, women are a lot more valid when they say things like that. But of course, also, it's you know, not all men are like that. Luckily, we have really nice non-awful guys out there. But those really nice non-awful guys, if they don't say anything, in the moment when someone shares a crappy meme or says something inappropriate to a woman in front of them, they cease being allies at that moment. And I think that's something that they don't necessarily think they're like, Well, I didn't do anything. But you don't have to have done anything to perpetuate violence on women, because you're allowing that atmosphere to exist in the first place. Like, everybody's accountable. Not everybody understands that they're accountable. And when I'm saying accountable, I don't want men to think that I'm saying that they are all to blame. I'm just saying they all have a responsibility to pitch in and help out. That’s what actually being an ally is.

 

Marissa: Exactly. Inaction is an action. Right? Not taking the stance is still a stance. By somebody not stepping up. If you see something like the airport, mantra, right. If you see something, say something, or, you know, if you see it, call it out, embarrass that person. I don't care if it makes you feel awkward, or it makes you look bad for a minute, it's going to make you look really good 30 seconds later that you stuck up for somebody being victimized. That's it. Like, if you see something, do something about it. Especially the Wrestling World, because everybody knows everybody. So, you know, that not only will that word travel, but like you're protecting your posse. These are your people. Protect them, if you see something, stop it.

 

Risa: And I think that a lot of guys understand inherently that sexual violence against women or anyone is like not cool. I think that they don't necessarily understand that link between what's happening in a given moment, and what they will allow it to happen. And there's a thing called what's it called the dilemma of like the bystander.

 

Marissa: Bystander Effect.

 

Risa: Yeah, or like how to be an active bystander. And it's like, you can't assume that someone else is going to say what you're thinking and if you're thinking it, and you're thinking about whether or not you should say something and speak up, chances are you should. Chances are, it's scary to do so. Chances are, it's going to be awkward and uncomfortable. But you know what, if you do that now, you're ensuring that the person who is being objectified or spoken to in an inappropriate way, you're ensuring that they have been, for the moment at least protected from that person who's saying that awful thing. And you're helping that person who said that awful thing to hopefully just not do that anymore. And possibly re-evaluate and go, Okay, well, I just got yelled at by a dude, not a woman, but a dude. So maybe I should think about that. Because unfortunately, there's a lot of men talking over women not listening to women, the tone of our voices is higher, like they tune us out, they've been conditioned to, it's a whole thing. Like, I'm not trying to, it's it sucks, because men are also victimized by the culture and because they are generally more privileged in that culture than women are, they don't understand that they too, are being hurt by this. But they’re being conditioned not to listen to women. And so, I think it's really important that men talk to other men and have these discussions and check each other, but also be cool about it and just like, it doesn't have to be a huge confrontation. It doesn't have to be like… I imagine when people get into arguments on Facebook, that they kind of feel like, there's a whole bunch of people standing around going, “Oh!” like, that's not happening. It doesn't have to be, doesn't have to be that much posturing and like, you want to throw down or like, it doesn't have to be like that, you can just be like, “Hey, you know, I feel like that wasn't really cool to say, and you probably shouldn't say that, like, not a big deal. Just you know, don't do that again.” And then if they want to escalate it from there, then by all means, go have a big long Facebook argument and waste two hours of your time. But if you don't say anything, it's not going to go anywhere. You're not doing anything. Never, ever, ever has solved this problem. That's why we're in this mess because nobody said anything. And now it's all coming in rushing out at once. And people are saying like, Oh, it's, the self-destruction of wrestling. I've seen a lot of people say that I'm like, Wow, you guys are insane. This is the golden age of wrestling right now. This is wrestling, actually joining the 21st century and being truly welcome and inclusive for the first time ever. This is suddenly becoming a huge priority. Like corporate America has had this revelation. I mean, it happens every generation but like, corporate America has been on top of this Corporate Social Responsibility thing for a minute. Wrestling is just getting on this tip now. Like this is a great time for wrestling because we're actually having these conversations like this could go a really great way to self destruction of wrestling comes when people go, "Yeah, okay, we know all that. And obviously, the culture of wrestling is so toxic that there's nothing we can do about it. So hey, let's just go back to running shows.” You know what I mean? Like, that's the destruction. That's when the ship is too far sunk. We can't possibly bail it out. Now we're done And I don't think that we're there. I think we're flying high. I think that this is a great thing. Like this is exactly what wrestling needed. And I hope that I'm not the only person who thinks about it that way.

 

Rob: That's, actually a great way to look at it. I like what you're saying Risa And I want to rewind a little bit if that's okay. You know, I think we all kind of say like, we're not surprised when I brought this to Marissa’s attention. I remember Marissa saying, are you surprised? You know, like, you know, in the world of athletics or pro wrestling, you know, which I guess for wrestling is a unique situation with a lot of the men and women athletes and all that. You know, we I guess overall, we're all not super surprised. But Risa, you know, let's rewind a little bit. You know, we see this move in taking off on Twitter, you see some of these big names, we've been pretty good about not naming names on this and that doesn't have to be the case. But we've been pretty good about it on it on this podcast so far, it’s just kind of the way it's been. But, you know, certainly take it wherever you want. But you see some of these names. I think there were one or two, I was like, yeah, that, that checks out. That makes a lot of sense. And then there… Yeah, exactly. And then then there's some, you know, I've had people on my show that I've literally went back and deleted episodes like, you see these things. You know, I was talking to Marissa about this last time, I think he the stat was less than 4%-5% are really false of these accusations. And, you know, statistically speaking, all that. Risa, you're just kind of thoughts =when you see some of these specific names, you know, I'm sure you've worked with some legends or like you said, people, like, X amount of people know who I am. So, I have this ego, and I can do whatever I want your kind of thoughts on seeing these names. And, you know, for me, like, I was like, Oh, yeah, that checks out and some others. I was like, oh, man, like that breaks my heart. Like, what is your kind of initial response?

 

Risa: Well, I think that, I mean, to kind of give this a little bit of, you know, broader context. It used to be that domestic violence was not spoken about. If a guy was wailing on his wife, and she had a black guy, nobody said anything. And she was entirely alone. And that's horrible. But that used to be very normal and wrestling, in terms of being like the rest of the world is always several decades behind in mentality. Because there are a bunch of older guys, former wrestlers who came up in that world when it was very carny-esque, and very much about being, you know, putting one over on the sucker in the audience, rather than trying to actually entertain people being positive and stuff like it is now. Like, it's always been a couple of decades behind. We've always had this hush-hush kind of mentality about domestic violence. And so, it makes total sense that there would be that kind of hush-hush mentality in the World of Wrestling. Oh, well, you know, I heard but you always hear the rumors, though, is the thing. Oh, well, I heard so and so is this, and I heard this guy did that I don't want to get into any names. Because, you know, this isn't TMZ like people can go on Twitter and see it Like, there's literally like a Google Doc somewhere that has all of them in alphabetical order, with links to the actual accusations. So, it's like, you can find this stuff if you want to. If you're curious, like, you know, and this, this is a great new resource. By the way, if you're if you're a promoter, and you're trying to put on a show, you better be checking that freaking list. You know what I mean? It's out there now. So, check that list and then, you know, consult with God or whoever, and say, okay, is it worth the draw that this person has to, to hire, you know, to bring this person in who might sexually harass my roster? You know, and maybe the accusations are kind of tame, and you're like, Well, my threshold is a little bit over that So I'm going to disregard this guy. You know what, I don't know. History will ultimately be the judge. But there's, definitely some people that I was very surprised by, but every time to go back to that domestic violence thing. Every time There's always somebody who goes, "Oh, I know that guy. He's such a nice guy." And it's like, of course, he's nice to you. He's your neighbor or whatever You're not married to this person. I mean, there's a huge, there’s a startling number of athletes in the NFL who have had domestic violence incidents. It's not surprising anymore. NFL is not cleaning it up. I mean, they just now backtracked on the Colin Kaepernick thing. So clearly, they're at least 10 years behind too. But it's there's always going to be people who you're surprised by. There's always going to be people who you're like, yeah, that guy kind of seemed like a psycho. But to that, I will say, it shouldn't be a surprise. Because if you look at the statistics, it shouldn't surprise you at all, that there are an astounding number of rapes that take place, and insanely small number of rapes that are reported. An even smaller number of cases that go to trial, and a much smaller number of convictions. There's no incentive for people to come forward unless they're telling the truth. So, when they come forward, you should absolutely believe them. But you also definitely shouldn't be surprised because it's astronomical. I hear different numbers on this, but like 1 in 4, or I've also heard 1 in 3 women will be sexually harassed or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. So, when you know that the number is that high, why would you ever be surprised that it's somebody who isn't outwardly nice? I mean, when you think about all of the, avalanche of exposed pedophilia cases in the Catholic Church, like, are you that surprised? They have a direct line to God, and they think that they can get away with this. So why would you be surprised that it's a person who was nice to you the one time you met them? Like that's silly. It's frankly, silly and naive. And women have had to grow up a lot quicker than men on this. There's no excuse for men not to tune in and get, get their mind correct about this, because we live it day in and day out. And so, members of the LGBTQ community. I mean, if you come out as a little bit not straight, you are subjected to a lifetime of BS because of it. So, and from people who are otherwise very nice people. But I want to say something really quickly about the, what you said about people who were like, “Well, you're I'm not surprised," that's part of the problem. And I've said it to, there's been a couple people who I'm like, yeah, I'm not surprised. That guy seems like a total psycho I met him one time didn't like him. And it's like, you know, what, I didn't have anything specific. I didn't have anything that I could point to and be like, oh, that guy just did or said or whatever. It's just a vibe. And so, I think that if you get that vibe from somebody, you kind of owe it to everybody else in the wrestling community, to you know, kind of keep tabs a little bit maybe. I'm not saying like go Gestapo on them. I'm just saying, a lot of times you get a vibe about someone, you get intuition, you get this feeling really like this person makes me feel unsafe. And if that's the case, you need to listen to that. Because there are a lot of people who are, there's a lot of young girls and training and whatever. There are countless cases of this now that have been brought to light. There's been all these cases of women saying, “Yeah, I thought he was a little creepy but everybody else was okay with him. So, I kind of ignored it.” And it's like, that's the exact thing you don't ever want to ignore. And it's hard because you want to be seen as a team player. And you want to become part of the family. And a lot of wrestling Federation's kind of have like a cult-like vibe to them where it's like, you are one of us, you must be one of us. That's a real thing. I was only very briefly involved, but I got that vibe like, Okay, all right. It's more prevalent in wrestling schools, where it's like you should be there every day of the week, even if you're not in class at that exact moment, always be around. And it's like, if that's the unwritten rules, if that's the requirements that you just sit around all the time and just be there, then you're just sitting there in harm's way with people who skeeve you out. And no one should be asked to do that. But unfortunately, it's like, well, who are they going to go and put on the show? Who are they going to call the person who hangs around the most the person is right in front of their face all the time. So there needs to be more safeguards in place at the schools like there's insanely a little oversight and Daisy was bringing this up. When you're talking to her about in New Jersey, specifically that the Athletic Commission, there's like no presence whatsoever. There's next to no regulation. And even in states where there is regulation, it's mostly about like, “Look, you have insurance, and do you have a medical person on standby," and things like that. There's very little oversight into like structures in place, and there are no structures in place. Like well, of course, you're going to have these positions that women and young people are forced into where they're easy to manipulate and coerce. Because there's zero reason or there's nothing in place to stop that from happening.

 

Rob: Yeah,

 

Marissa: I totally agree. Do you mind if I jump in really quick So I think you brought up a really, you bring up a ton of good points, and I just can't keep up with my note taking.

 

Risa: I know. I'm sorry, I'm all over the place.

 

Marissa: No, it's great because you're covering so many great topics. So, one of the things I want to talk about is how you said the school in the schools, there's no protection. It's such a vulnerable population, you were literally it's, I'm not in the Wrestling World, the only thing I can equate it to is the military. And it's like the youngling's are the most vulnerable population, because they have these people in power above them. In wrestling school, it's the teachers, the people training them. You know, those people are the people that are the segue. They're the gateway from the person training to being a professional wrestler. There's, you know, nobody else there. So, they are perfect victims. Because, you know, what are they going to do? They're going to go to, you know, a different trainer and talk about it? No, it's so scary. If you're being harassed by your, by your trainer, by a person you're supposed to trust, like, like Linda, like Daisy said, you know, you're supposed to trust these people to throw your body in the air and catch it, but you can't trust them not to abuse you. And so that's really important to see is that the vulnerable population are the youngest people, and there are no protections for them. And so like, what can we do to create that atmosphere of safety, and seeing something and saying something. And I also before I forget it, want to go back to vibes. There were a ton of times in my life, where I was in a situation with a person or with a group of people, and I like pinpointed a person. I'm like, I don't like you. And I didn't know why. Right? And it's just, it's so strong for me, I like feel that right away. And I never said anything. And then circle back five years come to find out that person is actually a horrible person and did these terrible things. And, you know, somebody came forward and spoke to me about and like, “Oh, shit, I went to elementary school with that person, I hated them, then.” You know what I mean? And so, I learned to, to always call it out, you don't need to call it out to the person you don't like. But I'll always subtly bring it up to somebody else in the group. And I learned that way, that I've actually never been alone, in feeling the way I felt. And it made it much more comfortable for me to start calling it out all the time. So, any situation I'm in if I'm walking around with my boyfriend, or if we're better example, if we're in a group with like a bunch of people, I don't know, or a bunch of people - mixed that I know and don't know. And I don't like someone I'll turn to my boyfriend be like, hey, do you get a weird feeling from that person over there? And nine times out of 10? He'll say yes. And if he says, No, then I go to someone else. Usually a woman, I'm like, “Hey, do you feel a little weird? Like that person said this thing. And it like, kind of made me my skin crawl? “And they'll look at me and be like, holy crap, do you read minds? And because we as humans are all connected by energy, and we read that energy, and we feel that energy. And so, feel empowered to call it out. And don't do it and put yourself in a vulnerable situation, but, but talk to somebody that that you trust or talk to somebody that, you know, in a situation or that might know that person just say, hey, do you get a weird, funny feeling from that person? And nine times out of 10? They'll say yes.

 

Risa: And a lot of guys, I think are doing a disservice to themselves by not paying attention to their gut. And it usually takes a woman to bring it up before they'll be like, Yeah, actually, that guy's like the worst. I don't I, the majority of the time, men are not the ones to say that it's usually a woman has to be like pointing out kind of what I feel is the elephant in the room. And then suddenly, it's like, opening the floodgates. Like, Oh, yeah, that guy seems like a piece of crap. You know, like, and I think it's so interesting. I think men need to kind of pay attention to their gut more and go, “Well, wait a second. Like if, if I'm getting a weird vibe from this person, Imagine what the women around me are feeling about this person.” Because to your point, like, I don't know, the science behind it, I would never claim to have any scientific knowledge whatsoever about anything. But anecdotally, you know, I think most of us can kind of walk into a room with two people in it. Having just opened the door, and immediately know that those two people were just arguing. You can feel it in the air, you can feel a tension. You can feel it. You can pick up on you can subconsciously kind of pick up on body language cues and other things like your body is an amazing machine of perception. It is taking in insane amounts of data all the time and processing them. And just because it's not something that you can see with your eyes or smell or whatever. Just because it's not one of the five senses doesn't mean that's not a sense. Doesn't mean it's not something you should pay attention to. And I think if men kind of decided that they were going to tune into that more, or talk to women about it more, I think that they also would be in a much better position. Because a lot of the times, people to the best of the point about the, you know, being an active bystander, a lot of times like someone, they're just like, waiting for someone else to open those floodgates. And now is not the time to wait for somebody else. You got to you got to jump on that now.

 

Marissa: I completely agree. 100%.

 

Risa: Okay, can I bring up I have like one more thing that I think is kind of important to bring up because I think maybe it'll help some people?

 

Rob: Absolutely.

 

Risa: I think there's, a bit of a problem with, for men who can't maybe kind of can't comprehend that women view men as heroes. In addition to maybe finding them attractive, or whatever. And, and Daisy kind of brought this up that like, she had to go pick up somebody from DX, and it was like, oh, what are you going to go do with that guy? And it's like, what? When you say that kind of stuff to a woman are firkin head spin. Because we've all kind of grown up with media that is catered to what's called the male-gaze, I'm sure you guys have heard of this. It's like pretty ubiquitous at this point. But the male gaze is the, that the audience the intended audience of visual media is a heterosexual CIS gendered man, because those are the people who are making them movies. So subconsciously, they're making them for themselves as the audience. And we, you know, it's a gift, the male gaze is a gift for women, because we understand now looking at things through men's eyes constantly, because there's very little media that's made for us that, you know, men are looking at us as objects. The hero of the story always gets the girl and it's like getting the girl itself is problematic, right? But women having viewed all this media growing up, through this male gaze, like we are able to see men being depicted on screen and well, wherever else as heroes. So, men are trained to see women as objects of desire, women through being forced to watch everything through a male gaze, are able to see men as both objects of desire and also as aspirational as people to look up to. Like, I may think that Jason Momoa is sexy. But I also find him inspiring as like, a hero figure in like, Aquaman. “Oh, you can freakin talk to fish, that's really cool. Wish I could talk to fish or whatever. And he's ripped, and I wish I could get ripped.” So, I'm able to hold these two different notions about that person in my head at once one super hot; two, really cool and I wish I could be more like them. And men don't get that opportunity. Because when they see women depicted on screen, they're typically only depicted on screen as something to aspire to gain, like an object or possession, rather than somebody to look up to. And so, I think men are kind of short handed a little bit by the male gaze and media because it's like, do you ever see a woman besides like, maybe your mom, you know, if you're like a really nice person and you care about your family. I don't know that men can really understand that they can be both attracted to a woman and also think that she's a hero and someone that they want to be like. Like, if you ask a bunch of men who their heroes are, they'll say, this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. If you ask a woman who their heroes are, they'll probably mention other women. But they'll probably also mention some men. And so, I think men, men don't understand that women can have two separate kind of complimentary views about male heroes. So, when that woman comes into the locker room, and they're talking about how much they love so and so male wrestler, they assume that it's the same way that they would look at a woman wrestler which is in like, a sexual way or like an objectifying kind of way. Instead of being like, Oh, she's looking at this male wrestler, the way I look at that male wrestler, which is I grew up watching them on TV, and they're my hero. So, I think that's another thing that maybe the kind of lack of understanding about that ends up being detrimental to men. And I wish it wasn’t. Like I would love for men to be able to rattle off a list of their heroes  and have some women on it. And unfortunately, that's rarely the case in my experience.

 

Rob: Risa, I have so many questions for you really quick, I just wanted to say this kind of piggybacking off something Marissa was saying earlier. you know, you refer to kind of like the kids coming up in the army and such. We talked about this on the last podcast, but you know, on our show, we try to help the careers of these kids that are coming up. And, you know, a lot of my experiences with these kids have been so positive and, you know, I do worry about them. You know, I even asked, you know, one of them, like, how do you stay so humble, you know, I see who you roll with. These people are definitely going to be on TV, they're going to be stars of tomorrow, we want to support them. What is your kind of thoughts on like, us having these conversations now? And how that might help them? Like, what do you think the future is going to look like, for these kids? Is it going to be a lot of the same? Are they going to be better than, than we were? Not, not like you're doing these things, but our generation, I should say?

 

Risa: I mean, if you look at Gen Z, they're already the most tolerant generation out of all of the generations by miles. They're already way more tuned in. They like, you know, you know, they have friends who are bisexual. They have friends who are non binary. They have friends who are trans. It's not really nearly as much of an issue for a lot of them anymore, obviously, I don’t want to make to make sweeping generalizations. But I think that they're already kind of primed and ready to see the world in that better, more equitable way. The only thing that can knock that down, is the people that they look up to, that they work with in wrestling schools, and that they get into the ring with, the old heads. They, you know, the veterans. If, you know, there's a lot of veterans who spend the majority of their time and when I say veterans, I mean of wrestling, not actual veterans. But they spend a lot of their time just complaining about the young people. And it's like, you sound much older than you are, and you're also not helping things. And every time you take it upon yourself to knock them down a peg, you're teaching them that their mentality is wrong. And so, there is hope for the new generation of talent coming in. Yes, they're young, and so they're, you know, cocky and obnoxious. Like, who wasn't cocky, and not just when they were 17 years old, or 21 years old? Like come on. It's, you know, they tend to kind of get a bad rap. But that's just the way the generations tend to interact with each other, right? Like, kids these days, like, that's, you know, that's such a common refrain. But in this time, we have an opportunity here for things to get so much better than they are and for people to feel safer, and for people to be included. And for a diverse group of people to be able to show off and normalize that kind of diversity for future generations. This is all really great stuff. The people in the locker rooms who've been around a while, instead of being salty dogs about it, they need to embrace it, they need to encourage these younger talents, and they need to not make them try to feel as jaded as they are. Because there's a lot of, you know, chip on the shoulder mentality in locker room, unfortunately. And it's it doesn't just you know, just because you're crabby doesn't mean that you should try to affect younger people who are bright eyed and bushy tailed, and make them feel crappy, too. And unfortunately, I think that there's a lot of that. And that's the danger. I think that this new generation of wrestlers has a lot of promise. And I think that they can actually conduct themselves much better, so long as that talent and that that mentality of equality is nurtured rather than, you know, shit on.

 

Rob: Yeah, and I think it's up to like a lot of the promoters right now, and we know a lot of the good ones. But, you know, to kind of step up or, you know, the veterans even in the business to step up a little bit. And, you know, hopefully, you know, just having these discussions will all pay off in a very positive way.

 

Risa: And put more women in the, in the main positions in the organization. If you don't have a woman high up in your organization who's in the room with you helping you make decisions, you're going to have blind spots that you don't even know about. And that's common in corporate America, too. There's a big discussion about like women being on corporate boards and how there's very few of them. That's a known problem that they're working on. That's something that every wrestling promotion should be working on too. If it's just a bunch of old white guy sitting in a room, you're not going to be including everyone even if you think you are. And that's just that's so easy to correct just hire a woman. Just put a woman in your creative team or whatever it is. That's all it's not difficult. Just add people in, no one has to leave. No one has to lose their job. You just have to add in the voices that are missing.

 

Rob: Real quick, I wanted to ask. I'm liking this Risa-Marissa tag team here. You guys got a you know all the info here. But I wanted to ask you guys, Risa we'll start with you and then Marissa if you have anything just to kind of add in general, maybe Risa more from the business standpoint. And Marissa more from like the stats and you know, General standpoints. But let's just really quick, like, let's rattle off kind of like list of things that we can do to be better. We've touched on it a little bit already. But as far as the locker rooms, maybe separate locker rooms, as far as the locker room leaders, as far as the airport pickups, all that kind of stuff, Risa we'll start with you.

 

Risa: Separate locker rooms are really important. The problem with separate locker rooms is that sometimes it's like, well, all the actions happening in the men's locker room. And then there's just two women staring at each other in the women's locker room. And so, I think that, in addition to having a women's locker room, there needs to kind of be a space in between where everybody can kind of hang out. Where people are also not getting undressed at the same time. Because that's two totally different dynamics there that shouldn't be mixing together. If you sat there, you know, in your boxer shorts, talking to another person about your match, like, you know, things are going to end up getting left out. Whereas if you were in an area where you already dressed, or you were just kind of standing around talking about matches, maybe you would end up being like Oh, so and so is here, we should get her involved in this angle. Whereas like if they weren't in the room with you, because you're doing all of your strategizing in the locker room. So that's a, that's a thing, too, it's not just about separate locker rooms, because that can actually end up being detrimental to women, unfortunately. It's about making a communal space that doesn't involve decloaking. And, you know, like, that kind of potentially compromising action that's taking place. So that's something in terms of picking people up from the airport, I don't know, like, I haven't had to deal with that personally. But, you know, there should probably be at least two people that go and pick somebody up from the airport. That just doesn't, that doesn't seem like too much to ask. Add on, as I sent out a woman on to the creative team. Add a woman on as the as the locker room leader, like make co-captains or something. I don't know. But you need to add more women who are given authority and men that authority is bolstered by the other men that are also in charge. That needs to be validated. And it needs to be authenticated If you just say, oh, talk to so and so if you have problems, and then they look you know, demure and scared to be there just as much as you are, that's obviously not going to be very effective. You're not going to have confidence in that person. So, the whole organization has to back that person up. Codes of conduct that people have to sign that say sexual harassment of any kind is the zero-tolerance policy. I think that not allowing people to show up high is probably a good idea. There's a lot more of that than you would think, especially when people… you're talking about taking the other person's life in your hands, and you're stoned out of your gourd? That's stupid. It's so stupid. And the same thing with drunk. Like, if you have to get a load on before you can wrestle, you should probably, you know, go work on that — not in the ring with another person's life in your hands. So that's another one. I think also another really kind of no brainer thing to do is just be okay with having those kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Like get comfortable being uncomfortable, because you know what? Women have been uncomfortable this whole time. So as long as we're uncomfortable, men should be uncomfortable watching that kind of behavior from other men and not doing something about it. Like you need to be accountable as well. So, you know, we all have to be uncomfortable until women feel safe.

 

Rob: There's very good points there, Risa and Marissa. Throw to you, you know, obviously, uh, you know, you're learning about all these, this wacky business that we love so much over here. But, you know, I asked you before, are you surprised by all this? You know, we compare it to a lot of like athletics and stuff like that. Is there anything like you could add to that or just like, in general for, you know, organizations that have men and women to kind of, you know, make the future brighter and reduce any of these abuses or, you know, harassment issues.

 

Marissa: So, I'm really excited to learn about the Wrestling World. I think that this is so it's so cool. And it's much different than I, as a third-party outsider who has never actively participated in or watched wrestling, like, it's so interesting, and I'm very curious to learn more about the Wrestling World. But as far as keeping people safe in the Wrestling World, that's kind of where my head is at right now with you guys. And so, in comparison to other professional athletic organizations, they started too, when all of these accusations started coming out in like 2018, and they started taking them seriously not that they weren't coming out before that, but I know that baseball, created a program where they had a person come in and train all the players about what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. Now think kindergarten level talking to somebody like you cannot touch somebody else's, butt without their explicit consent. You cannot say these things to people. I mean, like, very basic ground level, like, this is not okay, good touch — bad touch. And it's almost like we need to take all these people, and like mansplain to them, how to be appropriate with other people. And not just women, but like, with other people, you know? Like, you can't go and slap somebody, but because you feel like it. You can't, you know, comment on somebody's breasts that you have not had any sort of consensual conversation with, like about that with before. It just, it doesn't make sense. And it's abusive, and it's a power move. And that's all it is. It's about having control and power over a person. So, having that like, professional training about good touch — bad touch, and, and what's appropriate and inappropriate, might be a really good tool to utilize. And requiring that training be signed off before they're able to get in the ring. You know, and I know that it's a lot of indie stuff, and like underground stuff. So maybe there's no, I don't know, if there's like an authority that can oversee that. But maybe putting something like that into practice.

 

Risa: You can hire those kinds of you know, there are people who go around, and that's their job is they just do sexual harassment training. And there's a lot of, if you work for the state, if you work for a state, you have to go through that training, like I had to go through when I worked for a State University. I had to go through sexual harassment training. So, like, it's mandated in other parts of the work world. And I think that people kind of look at wrestling is like this fun, just, you know, extra thing that we all do together. It's a hobby, it's this, it's that like, okay, sure. But you need to be accountable to other people and keep people safe. Whether it's a hobby or not, you need to make sure that everybody's on the same page about what isn't acceptable,

 

Marissa: Right. I mean, I don't ever get harassed going to like a scrapbooking meeting. But if I did, like, say something. You know, it's a hobby, a professional, all of it, you need to always feel safe where you are, and the people in charge need to put that into practice. So, if you have any Hot Tips on who to contact for that, I'd be happy to do some training. I also have two more quick things, one, hold each other accountable, like we were talking about before, just to recap  You know, if you see something in a locker room, or you hear something, as a, as a human being that makes you feel uneasy, talk about it. You don't need to be abrupt or rude about it, but like, go to somebody that you trust or feel safe with and be like, hey, did that bother you too? And that validation, because chances are, it does bother them too. That validation will empower you; it will empower you to speak up; it'll empower you to say something next time, knowing that you have another person that will back you up. And the final thing I know, we're kind of talking about the different generations and how, like, the upcoming generation is super awesome. And I'm so in awe of the social change. They're already making, and they're like, not even old enough to vote yet. So, I'm really excited about that. I think that embracing the change, knowing that humans are resilient, like we are resilient creatures, but we do not like change. And that's why every generation has a beef with the generation below them. You know, because, you know, for boomers and millennials, right, like they hate us, for the most part of my parents doesn’t hate us. But like, a lot of boomers don't like Millennials, because we are progressive in a different way that makes them uncomfortable. And you know what, it sucks to suck. Like, humans, humans are resilient, we're progressive. And we're a culture that wants to keep moving forward. And us and the generations below us as well. I'm a millennial. So, like, my generation and below us. We want to see social change, we want to see everybody having equal rights. we want to see all of these beautiful things to create a culture of acceptance and love and equality. And the people who are older than us that don't want that. Get the fuck over it. Like that's it, you know. Embrace that change, be resilient. You know, get that stupid old school mentality out of your head. Women don't belong in the kitchen, you know, and that's it. And embrace that and be open to it. Because if you're not, you're on the wrong side of history, and you're about to get left behind.

 

Risa: Absolutely. What I think people don't understand is that this, this is this is a match. This is a wrestling match. This is a decade's long wrestling match. There are no time limits, because it's been going on since the beginning of wrestling itself. Pro-wrestling vs. abusers. And abusers you lost. You lost the match and the stipulation of the match is loser leaves town. You're done. Get the fuck out. It's over. There are no rematches, you got curb stomped by women, by LGBTQ talent, by male allies and fans who give a shit about the talent. So, get out. It's over

 

Marissa: Risa for President.

 

Rob: So, this is it. So, first of all, thank you, you know, thank you Risa for coming on and sharing your thoughts and being totally open and pulling back the curtain for us a little bit. You know, we do need to have these conversations. I super appreciate it. I know you just laid down the law but you know, we do want to put you over here as well. So, if anyone does want to you know, higher Risa and maybe in like maybe kind of a backstage leader role even, Risa does do commentating announcing for a lot of these great independent organizations. So, before you know, we see on TV, every week, Risa, where can people start hiring you follow you on social media, all that good stuff?

 

Risa: Yeah. I'm on Twitter at Risa Pappas. I'm on Instagram at Risa Pappas. I'm on facebook.com/RisaPappasRingAnnouncer so you know, it's me. I am findable. I have a website, RisaPappas.com, mostly focused on the 700 other things that I do besides wrestling stuff. But you can also get a hold of me through there. And I, you know, I'm not afraid to shamelessly plug myself because there's also an epidemic of women, you know, demurring and being like, No, I'm so bad at talking about myself. No. I know of which I speak. I'm old enough that you can't push me around. And that's the kind of viewpoint that a lot of people in these Feds need. Feds need to wake up. Because obviously, this is a problem. And if you don't get on top of it, you're going to get left behind. So, if you don't want to get left behind, you need critical thinkers you need out of the box thinkers, you need people who will tell you the truth. And I'm one of those people. So please, and I'm very difficult to work with. As in, I will tell you when you're fucking up. And so, if that's what you think you need, which if you're smart, that's what you think you need. There are, I'm here, there are a lot of other women like me, who have been dying for the chance to make an important change in this industry. So, jump on it. We're here. We've been here the whole time. We've been waiting for the opportunity in which you will actually listen to us instead of just brushing us under the rug. So, we're here come find us.

 

Marissa: Listen, we're starting and we're starting to hashtag difficult to work with.

 

Risa: Proud job difficult to work with. Love it.

 

Rob: Alright guys, well dropping the mic right there. Thank you, guys, both for a few minutes and everyone. You know, 2020 is testing us let's be better in 2021. You know, let's have these difficult conversations. Let's stay safe. Let's stay healthy. Let's stay positive and everyone take care of each other. All right, guys, for the BCP and Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast we are out.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!

 

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